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3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby steadypal » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:15 pm

theckhd wrote:You may want to upgrade Mongoose to recommended. Testing indicates that our HV applications can proc it, which nearly doubles our proc rate and uptime. Uptimes in the range of 50-75% are reasonable for full raid buffs.

My Enchant Analysis shows that given that, it's our 2nd best threat enchant, just barely behind Accuracy. In addition, it gives a pretty significant avoidance and armor boost.



how would you compare mongoose with blade ward?

which DR is hit harder with the procs, my experience with blade ward atm is that it procs quite a bit, and usually see it rebuffing itself even up to 4 stacks while tanking.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5maM ... details/6/


30 minutes of autoattacking a heroic boss dummy, blade ward got up to 3 and 4 stacks quite a few times so the number for how many times it was applied are off by quite a bit

i know your saying mongoose is better for threat, but what would you say is better for tanking and if threat was a non issue?
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby lythac » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:48 am

I would add Vivid Eye of Zul, for those paladins in the 40k+ club in bleeding edge guilds who shun avoidance. Definitely worth it for a +12sta helm bonus, not sure about +9sta bonuses though.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:50 am

steadypal wrote:30 minutes of autoattacking a heroic boss dummy, blade ward got up to 3 and 4 stacks quite a few times so the number for how many times it was applied are off by quite a bit

i know your saying mongoose is better for threat, but what would you say is better for tanking and if threat was a non issue?

Actually, WoL properly counted 80 applications of the BW buff. It still counts applications properly even if you already have the buff - I counted them in the combat log to confirm. Your uptime was 36.6%, though that includes some periods where you had multiple stacks.

As a first-order estimate, let's pretend you have 36.6% uptime of a single stack of the buff. This is equivalent to assuming you parry a boss's attack every time buff gets re-applied, thus preventing you from ever having a multi-stack of the buff. A more rigorous analysis would involve some combinatorics to account for multi-stacks, but probably won't change the result significantly enough that we care.

So the average effect of Blade Warding would be 200*0.366 = 73.2 parry rating in this scenario.

Mongoose, on the other hand, should have around 50% uptime nominally, better if you have hit rating. At 50% uptime, that would be 60 agility on average. Using the conversions here, that works out to 0.684% dodge (50.5 rating at that DR level), 134.4 armor, and 1.2672% crit (58.2 rating).

So Mongoose will give you less avoidance (~50 dodge rating compared to 73 parry rating), but gives you 134.4 armor (~12 stam worth of EH) and 58.2 crit rating.

Note that both of these ignore haste effects entirely - both enchants should get better with haste. Also, since this is all empyrical data, there's a reasonable margin of error (less so for Mongoose, which we know should have 50% or more uptime in a raid environment). Your 73 parry rating could easily be +/- 20% or more since it's only a 30 minute parse we're working off of.

In any event, Blade Ward gives you more avoidance, Mongoose gives you avoidance/EH/threat. If you agree that most burst tank deaths are unavoidable nowadays, Mongoose would be the logical choice since it's the only enchant that gives EH.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby fudomyou » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:08 am

In terms of shield enchants, is there a direct comparison of 18 stam from BC vs. 81 BV from plating out there? I think it was something like the BV will be worth about 240 EH on a boss' auto-attack, and 18 stam is worth a little over 200 for everything?
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:12 am

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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Mindrak » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:36 pm

Digren wrote:details each defense option and its stamina alternative, in order for replacement:

Chest - Greater Defense to Chest - Superior Health (1.0092)

Defense/stamina gem to pure stamina gem, sacrificing 6 avoidance socket bonus (1.0667)
Defense/stamina gem to pure stamina gem, sacrificing 6 stamina socket bonus (1.1111)
Shield - Defense to the BC-era Shield - Major Stamina (1.1111)
Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle to Greater Inscription of the Gladiator (1.1667)
Likewise, the following list details each non-defense avoidance option and its stamina alternative, in order for replacement:

Agility/stamina gem to pure stamina gem, sacrificing 6 avoidance socket bonus (1.100)
Gloves - Major Agility to Heavy Borean Armor Kit (1.1857)
Agility/stamina gem to pure stamina gem, sacrificing 6 stamina socket bonus (1.186)



Just a minor change - could you move the shoulders to the second list? Due to the resil changes, 15 resil provides the same value as 15 defense rating for uncritability purposes when this enchant is taken in isolation. I.e. 589 -> 574 defense required is exactly the 15 defense rating you're giving up to use it.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:38 am

Mindrak wrote:Just a minor change - could you move the shoulders to the second list? Due to the resil changes, 15 resil provides the same value as 15 defense rating for uncritability purposes when this enchant is taken in isolation. I.e. 589 -> 574 defense required is exactly the 15 defense rating you're giving up to use it.

The value of the shoulder enchant was calculated assuming you're far enough over 540 defense that the resilience is completely wasted, since that will be the more common case for a tank pushing ToGC hard modes, which is the context in which I did the calculations in the first place.

Thus, at that point, you give up 35 points of avoidance for 30 stam, for a ratio of 35/30=1.1667.

If you actually need the resilience to maintain uncrittable, and you pretend it's worth exactly the same as a point of defense, then the shoulder enchant drops to 20/30=0.667, an incredible value.

Of course, the realistic value would be somewhere in between the two, since resilience doesn't give any avoidance benefit. I'd probably peg it at closer to 1 or 1.1 just for that alone, even for a tank that requires the resilience for uncrittability.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:09 am

How steep is the AD limit from defense? Will a tank relying on resilience (even 15-25 points of it) to stay uncrittable gimp their AD heal?
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby lythac » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:12 am

Digren wrote:How steep is the AD limit from defense? Will a tank relying on resilience (even 15-25 points of it) to stay uncrittable gimp their AD heal?


I remember reading that it works linearly from 0% at 400def to 100% at 540def. I may be mistaken on this.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Folstar » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:30 pm

Why is this post not listed under "Gear"? The information is much better/informative then the link to "Tank Enchants and Gems".
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:49 pm

Folstar wrote:Why is this post not listed under "Gear"? The information is much better/informative then the link to "Tank Enchants and Gems".

I wrote both guides. That one is my 3.0 version. This one is 3.2 with refinement from lots of help.

I think Maintankadin is still trying to work out a system for non-moderators like myself to be able to modify the fixed HTML guides. I've talked to the site admins about it a few times but nothing has worked out yet.

If someone is reading this who can, by all means replace the old guide linked at the top with this one. Thanks! :D
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:28 am

Your 3.0 guide was under Guides -> Basic Training -> Item Enhancements. I've updated the text of that guide to the 3.2 version.

The "Gear->Tank Enchants and Gems" entry is Petrus' comprehensive list of all enchants and gems.

I think that your guide makes more sense under Gear as well, and that the comprehensive list is probably not necessary, but I don't have enough access to move around and rename the guides. If I did, I'd probably rename Petrus' guide to "Complete Enchant/Gem List" and yours to "3.2 Enchant/Gem Guide" for clarity.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:11 am

theckhd wrote:Your 3.0 guide was under Guides -> Basic Training -> Item Enhancements. I've updated the text of that guide to the 3.2 version.

The "Gear->Tank Enchants and Gems" entry is Petrus' comprehensive list of all enchants and gems.

I think that your guide makes more sense under Gear as well, and that the comprehensive list is probably not necessary, but I don't have enough access to move around and rename the guides. If I did, I'd probably rename Petrus' guide to "Complete Enchant/Gem List" and yours to "3.2 Enchant/Gem Guide" for clarity.

Ahh, my mistake. I didn't check to see which one he referred to.

Thanks for making the update.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:51 am

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/gear/all-wotlk-tank-enchants-and-gems - the guide up pon the site task-bar seems wrong and appears to be an older version.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:44 am

Njall wrote:http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/gear/all-wotlk-tank-enchants-and-gems - the guide up pon the site task-bar seems wrong and appears to be an older version.

My guide is under Guides: Basic Training: Item Enhancements. The guide you found is Petrus' Master List.

I'm working on the 3.3 guide. It will be up Soon(tm).

Soon(tm) is a registered trademark of Blizzard.
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