3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Robbert » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:57 am

Robbert wrote:The Engineering cloak tinker 'Flexweave Underlay' was buffed in 3.2 to provide 23 Agi in addition to the slow fall on use effect. Ignoring the on use effect, this buff makes this enchant best overall tanking enchant to cloak.


Ok...so I finally applied this enchant to one of my cloaks (for my ret set in this case), and while the text for the tinker does say it increases Agi by 23, but the tinker text on the cloak says it increases crit rating by 43. If the text as shown on the cloak is correct, then this tinker is no longer at all viable for tanking.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Arnax » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:11 am

I believe Titanium Plating now gives +81 BV instead of the old +40 BV on your shield.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:52 am

Robbert wrote:
Robbert wrote:The Engineering cloak tinker 'Flexweave Underlay' was buffed in 3.2 to provide 23 Agi in addition to the slow fall on use effect. Ignoring the on use effect, this buff makes this enchant best overall tanking enchant to cloak.


Ok...so I finally applied this enchant to one of my cloaks (for my ret set in this case), and while the text for the tinker does say it increases Agi by 23, but the tinker text on the cloak says it increases crit rating by 43. If the text as shown on the cloak is correct, then this tinker is no longer at all viable for tanking.


When I put this on my cloak a few days ago, I verified that it added 23 agility. It was not in the text, but toggling the cloak in and out of the slot changed my stat accordingly.

I do not know if they changed it in today's patch. I can check tonight.

Arnax wrote:I believe Titanium Plating now gives +81 BV instead of the old +40 BV on your shield.


Corrected. Thank you.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Piety » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:48 am

Is blood draining still of questionable effect with the changes to AD?
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:13 pm

Piety wrote:Is blood draining still of questionable effect with the changes to AD?

Blood Draining was never of questionable effect. That myth was debunked months ago.

Now even that myth can't be used as an excuse. Blood Draining is good, and in my opinion the best pseudo effective health option for the slot. I use it.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Veilan » Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:38 pm

For completeness' sake, you seem to have omitted the Nightmare Tear.

Even with the useless +10 spirit and negligible +10 intellect, at +10 agility, +10 strength and +10 stamina it can be a valid choice, at more useful item credit value and due to its prismatic flexibility. It's also rather cheap.

Might be worth a mention, just to round it out.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:51 am

Veilan wrote:For completeness' sake, you seem to have omitted the Nightmare Tear.

Even with the useless +10 spirit and negligible +10 intellect, at +10 agility, +10 strength and +10 stamina it can be a valid choice, at more useful item credit value and due to its prismatic flexibility. It's also rather cheap.

Might be worth a mention, just to round it out.

I don't want to confuse people who aren't nuanced in gear selection. Only blocking sets need to gem for strength, ever, and in that case a +10str/+15sta gem is likely a better choice anyway. In regular gear sets a +10agi/+15sta gem would be preferred.

In a theoretical world where blocking was important for effective health, it could have uses. But I can just imagine new tanks posting the gear advice forum with gem slots full of those and complaining about how they have trouble reaching and maintaining the defense minimum and how their strength and block gear doesn't seem to keep them alive long enough.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Wrathy » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:32 am

For those interested, I have a brief opinionated rant on gemming theory for 3.2 - Gems, Sockets and YOU!
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Veilan » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:53 pm

Digren wrote:But I can just imagine new tanks posting the gear advice forum with gem slots full of those


Heh, considering they're unique equipped, your imagination trumps mine here 8).

While I agree that usually other choices are better, the beauty of the prismatic stone is that it can provide you a slot bonus, and ease your meta activation, if that is a problem. Not that anyone should need that, but the option is out there and might deserve a place in a thorough guide. Possible confusion can be countered by accessible education in the gem's paragraph or description.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Tobyboat1 » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:23 am

Account Deactivated.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:43 am

The parry you get from parry rating still diminishes in effect faster than dodge does. They only changed the starting point.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Tobyboat1 » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:52 am

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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:18 am

Tobyboat1 wrote:Ah I seeeee, thank you :).

I'm at 24% D, 21% P, 13% B with 35k health unbuffed, should I bother resocketing or just wait for new gear ^^? For instance my helmet has nothing but a bit of defense and 70 parry lol. Blah I dunno..

Oh and I know that my block is low, but when I'm always over 102.4% in raids anyway.. I want the lowest amount of hits that I 'avoid' to be blocks.. aslong as I can stay capped against full hits. Blocking makes me cry in my pants :(

Please ask this in the Gear Questions and Advice forum. Reserve posts in this thread for comments about the guide such as your first post.

thanks
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Pancakes » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:42 pm

Still a little confused about taking 20 def to shield over 81 BV (105 with redoubt).. just from a theoretical point of view.

20 def rating / 4.918 = 4.067 def skill, *0.04, * 3 = 0.488% avoidance (miss/dodge/parry). + 0.163% block rating.

now with dr nailing that into the ground, that drops to 0.3ish. (ill using 0.25% avo after dr based on BiS Coliseum loots for the rest of my napkin maths)

So if we get hit 410 times that avoidance should stop 1 hit (given 102.4%), if we use BV (taking an 'uncrushability' of about 100% from bis list (so 2.4% chance to take a full hit)) we would have blocked 400 hits for 32400 dmg total. (if you were at .3% avo from 20 def it would be 27000)

so by that random terribad maths 20 def = 105 BV if you are getting hit for 42000 dmg after armour, which i think is IC hardmode with 5 ppl dead territory or super thorim mega death (highest Vezax hit i could find in logs was for 27000ish on our geared out the ass feral druid with many armors)




ok i may have lied when i said i was confused at the start, and i know there are holes in this hypothetical with spell dmg hits and such, just comes down to predicatable 105 dmg reduction vs 0.25 avoidance that could save you on every one of the 410 hits or not at all. Just looking for some feedback to my 3am theory.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Pancakes » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:52 pm

i realise now that i failed to consider that the 100% 'uncrushability' included proper avoidance and not just block%, so i guess a hypothetical based on a worst case scenario of only blocking stuff is correct, but with only 40% ish chance to block its only mitigating 16800 dmg over 400 hits which isnt quite as good if you're doing hardmodes.

also i may have misread my 'uncrushability'

PS: i know uncrushability doesnt really exist anymore, its just the word that comes to mind when trying to calculate around 102.4%

editted both posts for BV after redoubt. going to bed now
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:50 am

Defense to shield has nothing to do with its inherent avoidance. Defense to shield has to do with being uncrittable.

When your gear gets good enough to not require defense enhancement through all yellow gem slots, head enchant, shoulder enchant, back enchant, chest enchant, and shield enchant, where do you start cutting defense to boost other important stats?

If the socket bonus on the gear is poor, swapping def/sta gems to pure sta is a huge effective health boost and is one of the first places to enact change. The other place is on the back enchant, where Agi or the engie flexweave offer more pure avoidance, or the armor enchant is again a good effective health boost. Then you can look at your chest enchant, where +health is an ok EH boost given the loss of defense.

Some people would look at the shoulder enchant next, since 30 sta at the loss of 20 dodge and 15 def is a fair tradeoff for some. Only then would most people consider the block value enhancement via swapping out their shield enchant. (Perhaps, with the doubling of block value in 3.2, people would swap shield before shoulder. That remains to be seen.)

It's very unlikely anyone would swap out their head enchant for the engie alternative, since losing 20 def rating for 8 stamina is a poor deal under any circumstances.

When you've made all the other swaps, and you can still drop more defense/avoidance to gain effective health, then by all means use the block value enchant to shield. As I say at the top of the first post, only you, the experienced tankadin, knows what's best for you given your gear and raid role.

When most expert tanks on this forum have reached this point, and most feel that the block value enchant is the best value for the slot, I'll change the recommendation. Most don't yet. I don't yet. So I'm not changing it.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Macktruck » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:24 pm

As far as nightmare tears go, I put one in my Conq T8 shoulders because at the time, nobody could cut a Regal or Shifting Dreadstone. I don't really regret the gem as it activates my Austere Meta, and I gain 10 str at the cost of 5 stam. Not that huge of a loss.

Don't have a nightmare tear in boss tanking gear though. It's a decent choice, but not 100% optimal.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ard » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:46 am

Nominate for sticky. This guide rocks.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Barathorn » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:10 am

Ard wrote:Nominate for sticky. This guide rocks.


/points at maintankadin consolidated gearing guide sticky at top of page.

This guide. It's in it.

/slaps ard with a wet fish.

Please continue your excellant work Digren.

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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Argali » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:59 am

Concerning mongoose, while I personally still use it, last time I cared to lurk at tankspot, the peeps who tested mongoose v blade warding have basically said that mongoose is now dead. No maths or anything, they just stated mongoose is now dead. Keep in mind these were the 2 people who analyzed logs and stuff to figure out how good blade warding was.

Thought I'd mention it in case it's been missed.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ard » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:38 am

Barathorn wrote:
Ard wrote:Nominate for sticky. This guide rocks.


/points at maintankadin consolidated gearing guide sticky at top of page.

This guide. It's in it.

/slaps ard with a wet fish.

Please continue your excellant work Digren.

Barathorn


Hmm fish! ;)
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby PtrN1026 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:46 pm

I have been running with the idea of stam and strength being the best options for us, and have been running str/stam if its a red socket and def/stam if it is a yellow socket, and only then socket bonus would put me at a maximum of 5 stam loss when compared to gemming strait stam.

I have been avoiding gemming for parry or dodge simply because the gains on it seem to be minimum compared to the threat and EH gain (via block) of gemming for strength. What is the logic of avoiding strength gems?

I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand ^_^.

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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:23 am

The effective health gain of block at all is minimal at best, and the relative benefit from strength (i.e. 50% of the strength as block value) is smaller still. Meanwhile, avoidance, while not as good as effective health from a guaranteed survivability standpoint, does help give period breather / catch-up opportunities for your healers.

And the threat from strength is completely wasted unless you threat cap your raid, which you shouldn't be able to do if you're following the proper threat rotation.

When the diminishing returns on avoidance have rendered it marginal, and our threat has been nerfed in 3.3, the viability of strength gems will be revisited.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby repent » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:37 am

It seems to me likely, in the near future, that I will be swiching from Enduring gems in my yellow "necessary" sockets to Vivid Eye of Zul (+10 Hit Rating and +15 Stamina) gems as Defense/expertise in gear goes up and hit goes down. Each raid lockout, it seems I am dropping 20-30 hit. It seems a good way of maintaining respectable hit numbers, at least a 20-30 bump at relatively little cost.
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Re: 3.2 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:02 am

Yeah, let me expand my strength comment to say that, in general, we'll need to revisit the viability of threat gems in 3.3. As our gear scales up this expansion, our need for supplemental defense and avoidance diminishes, but our need for supplemental threat increases. Until a month ago almost no one talked positively about gemming for threat, but now I see it more and more.

Obviously some tanks who falling into the only you, the experienced tankadin, knows what's best for you given your gear and raid role category will start swapping now, but I'll wait until the majority see it as a good choice before I start recommending it to those who aren't as skilled at making their own decisions.
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