3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 7:39 am

theckhd wrote:1) We were tanking 4H perfectly fine before we had Hand of Reckoning, as long as the other tank wasn't also a Paladin


True.

theckhd wrote:2) In your example, everything would have been OK if the Paladin had used Righteous Defense as his first taunt, and the Warrior waited to taunt the other boss until after RD (i.e. that wipe was the paladin's mistake, because he didn't use his abilities in the right order).


Also true: The point still being, that had he been taunt-hit-capped, everything would have been fine and the issue would never have arisen.

theckhd wrote:3) Gemming for hit in your high-survival gear lowers your survival on progression fights.(...)


Here a very valid point. But by how much exactly? Digren recommended def/stam in yellow sockets, assuming a valid socket bonus. How much "time to live" would you loose by replacing, say, one def/stam with a hit/stam? Would it even be noticable?

To narrow the question: The stam is the same for the two gems, so how much survival do you get for 10 def rating, assuming ofc def-capped?

(I should maybe add that as a drainei, I have permanent access to the +1% hit heroic presence buff, making for a more relaxed hit cap)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 8:29 am

Ajire wrote:
theckhd wrote:3) Gemming for hit in your high-survival gear lowers your survival on progression fights.(...)


Here a very valid point. But by how much exactly? Digren recommended def/stam in yellow sockets, assuming a valid socket bonus. How much "time to live" would you loose by replacing, say, one def/stam with a hit/stam? Would it even be noticable?

To narrow the question: The stam is the same for the two gems, so how much survival do you get for 10 def rating, assuming ofc def-capped?

(I should maybe add that as a drainei, I have permanent access to the +1% hit heroic presence buff, making for a more relaxed hit cap)

The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.

If the fight doesn't test your survivability and tank swaps are important, then you could gem for hit. But if you do that in the same gear you use for the survival fight, you're reducing your survivability for the other encounter. On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.

Doing that lets you max your survivability on the fights where it matters while still letting you hit-cap for the one or two "gimmick" fights you might encounter along the way.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Marblehead » Fri May 07, 2010 8:31 am

Ajire wrote:
Marblehead wrote:You may have a point there, but that's not a reason to gem/enchant hit rating (except Accuracy). Why? Because the base miss chance for taunts on bosses is 17% (spell hit cap). To cap that you need to reach 9% spell hit (= 237 hit rating = 7.23% melee hit) and use the RD glyph.


Yes, I believe I said that:

(...)To avoid taunt failure, I would strongly recommend enchanting/gemming for hit until the 8% cap is reached - for most tanks it's sufficient with 1-3 hit/stam green gems in yellow sockets - and using the glyph of Righteous Defense.

You got me there. I totally missed that. I apologize.


Ajire wrote:
Marblehead wrote:I'm sure there are many paladins out there that would prefer to use some other glyph than the RD one.


So it's a matter of preference? preference is not a reason, because then my preference be taunt-hit-capped is just as valid a reason to do it.

Can you elaborate on the reason not to gem/enchant for hit?


Maybe I didn't phrased my thoughts correctly. What I was trying to say is that since we're talking about surviving, wouldn't the HoSalv glyph be a better choice?

As Theck said, you shouldn't mess with your progression set. That is supposed to be the all-mighty EH-maximized set. Leaving the glyph aside, it's better to carry in the bags 2-3 items with hit, 2-3 items with expertise and 2-3 items with strength for threat (like DC:G) and replace whatever is needed in every boss fight (these items can also be enchanted/gemmed accordingly to amplify their purpose). That leaves the progression set intact for when you really gonna need it.

Edit: Geez, Theck somehow beat me to it while I was writing. :P
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 8:54 am

theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.


Quite small indeed. My left-hand napkin calculation came up with 0.3 % total avoidance for 10 def rating (pre-DimisingReturn). If such small probability determines if you win or loose, you might as well play in the national lottery instead.

Now, I fully appreciate that the whole is the sum of it's components and if you swap three or four def/stam gems for hit/stam, I can understand that it may have a significant impact on survivability.

theckhd wrote:On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.


I'd prefer not to as I already carry four, completely different sets of gear with me at all times: PvE protection, PvE Holy and their pvp counterparts (and a few pieces of RP gear, to cap matters). Ganking unsuspecting alliance players at the entrances to various raids is a popular horde recreation on my server, and being ready to respond to hostilities at a moments notice is a very good idea - oh the sweet life on an rp-pvp server :wink:

But the idea has some merit and I'll see if it can come about at some point, if I end up with spare emblems of frost and nothing to spend them on, which is not likely to happen in any near future.

Thanks for your inputs :)
Last edited by Ajire on Fri May 07, 2010 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 9:22 am

Marblehead wrote:Maybe I didn't phrased my thoughts correctly. What I was trying to say is that since we're talking about surviving, wouldn't the HoSalv glyph be a better choice?


It could be, but personally I'm not too keen on casting HoSalv on myself, when I have a 10k hunter and a 8k retridin tailing me on the threat-meter :)

Also, as you can probably infer from my last reply to Theck, my second spec is holy, which I primarily use for my guilds pvp activities and as such making a specialized über-survival build/glyph-set for pve tanking is not an option for me. Constant respeccing and glyph changing is also a very costly affair and with the constant need for raid consumables, I would rather not go down that path either. I just have to squeeze the best I can out of one all-round build and glyph-set. Therefore I've chosen to go for the taunt hit-cap, as this has caused some issues in our progression in the past. (Saurfang, dang those 5 secs where he hits the tank with the rune hurts the morale of the raid - or the time when our festergut tank blew up, geez)

I'd also thank you for your input :)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 9:45 am

theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.



Is it really a nonzero bonus? Arguably increased dps lowers the total time of the fight, which gives the opponent less time to kill you. Btw, I'm not in the least arguing that hit would be better for survival than defence, just that hitrating arguably DOES have an indirect survivability effect.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 07, 2010 9:49 am

Ajire wrote:
theckhd wrote:On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.


I'd prefer not to as I already carry four, completely different sets of gear with me at all times: PvE protection, PvE Holy and their pvp counterparts (and a few pieces of RP gear, to cap matters). Ganking unsuspecting alliance players at the entrances to various raids is a popular horde recreation on my server, and being ready to respond to hostilities at a moments notice is a very good idea - oh the sweet life on an rp-pvp server :wink:

While I understand your reasoning, I cannot hurt the survivability of progression tanks by suggesting that they harm their best progression gear set with hit rating gems. I state this in my guide:

Digren wrote:Gems and enchants can be used to complete gear in one of two possible ways:
    1. to overcome a deficit in the gear's stats, such as when using gems and enchants for defense rating when wearing iLvl 213 Naxxramas items, or
    2. to maximize and specialize gear, such as when stacking effective health enhancements on the best effective health equipment.
In general, it is better to maximize and specialize gear to be the best it can in one role. Then, maximize and specialize an alternate piece for a second role, and so forth. This way, by swapping gear, a tank can be best suited for the needs of the encounter.


Basically, you wish to gem for hit rating to overcome a perceived hit rating deficit in your progression gear. Theck instead proposed that you maximize and specialize gear. I stand by maximize and specialize as the better choice.

That said, I keep this in the guide for a reason:
Digren wrote:Remember, only you, the experienced tankadin, knows what's best for you given your gear and raid role.


If you think you can do better by doing things your own way - great! The only people your choices affect are you and your raid. I like people to experiment and then, if they truly think they have a better way, come back here and convince everyone. That's how we make progress and keep the recommendations from becoming stale. In this case, though, I think the existing recommendations are spot on.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri May 07, 2010 9:53 am

Glyphs are cheap and flexible. Carry a stack of all the ones you might want to use with you, and reglyph as needed for different fights.

Carrying a few pieces of hit gear around to swap in as needed is a better solution than gemming hit in survival gear, unless you're the sort who'll regem fight by fight.

Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.

However, I'm not sure what your progression level is, but the 15% buff has relaxed gearing requirements by a ton, gemming hit is certainly a valid use of that extra item budget. If it makes your life easier, by all means do it. Those of us advocating against it are being purists. When you hit H-LK or H-Sindragosa, you'll probably regem, but until then, gemming threat is perfectly valid.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 07, 2010 9:57 am

yappo wrote:
theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.



Is it really a nonzero bonus? Arguably increased dps lowers the total time of the fight, which gives the opponent less time to kill you. Btw, I'm not in the least arguing that hit would be better for survival than defence, just that hitrating arguably DOES have an indirect survivability effect.

A death scenario isn't the entire fight, though. A death scenario consists of a specific subset of abilities within a certain window. Adding 10 seconds onto a fight doesn't mean your TTL must be increased by 10 seconds. It means that, maybe, the boss will have the opportunity to create one more death scenario.

I guess I see that as more of a % chance thing than a survivability thing. What are the odds of there being another death scenario due to a slightly longer fight? I'd lump gearing to avoid that chance the same as I lump gearing for avoidance in general - below gearing to survive the inevitable death scenarios that do arise.

This is even more true if your choice to gear to avoid the chance of another death scenario means that you are less able or less likely to survive all the other death scenarios. While that may have a survivability effect, it might be lower, not higher.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 10:20 am

Meloree wrote:Glyphs are cheap and flexible. Carry a stack of all the ones you might want to use with you, and reglyph as needed for different fights.


Well, that varies quite a bit from server to server, and the definition of "cheap" from player to player. For me, whos coffers seldom exceed 1k gold, on a server in the expensive end, that is not an option, when I need repairs and raid consumables.

Meloree wrote:Carrying a few pieces of hit gear around to swap in as needed is a better solution than gemming hit in survival gear, unless you're the sort who'll regem fight by fight.


Yes, point taken already :mrgreen:

Meloree wrote:Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.


Yes, these could indeed make HoSalv a viable, if caution-needing, damage reduction cooldown - Does it stack with DP for a nifty -70% on all damage taken? In any case I'll definitely remember it, in case I need to get creative to survive.

Meloree wrote:However, I'm not sure what your progression level is, but the 15% buff has relaxed gearing requirements by a ton, gemming hit is certainly a valid use of that extra item budget. If it makes your life easier, by all means do it. Those of us advocating against it are being purists. When you hit H-LK or H-Sindragosa, you'll probably regem, but until then, gemming threat is perfectly valid.


I suspected the buff had a say in this also - but you are right, we are currently working on Professor Putricide.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri May 07, 2010 10:25 am

Ajire wrote:
Meloree wrote:Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.


Yes, these could indeed make HoSalv a viable, if caution-needing, damage reduction cooldown - Does it stack with DP for a nifty -70% on all damage taken? In any case I'll definitely remember it, in case I need to get creative to survive.


Multiplicative stacking. 60% total damage reduction from both at once.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 10:30 am

Meloree wrote:
Ajire wrote:
Meloree wrote:Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.


Yes, these could indeed make HoSalv a viable, if caution-needing, damage reduction cooldown - Does it stack with DP for a nifty -70% on all damage taken? In any case I'll definitely remember it, in case I need to get creative to survive.


Multiplicative stacking. 60% total damage reduction from both at once.


So basically a warriors Shield Wall, but with half the cooldown - very neat indeed :D Thanks for that tip.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 10:41 am

yappo wrote:
theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.



Is it really a nonzero bonus? Arguably increased dps lowers the total time of the fight, which gives the opponent less time to kill you. Btw, I'm not in the least arguing that hit would be better for survival than defence, just that hitrating arguably DOES have an indirect survivability effect.


I think you misread that. "A nonzero amount of survivability" refers to the 10 defense rating. "Excess threat" refers to the hit rating.

In other words, "On a fight where your survivability matters, more survivability (10 def) is preferable to more threat (10 hit rating)."
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 10:49 am

theckhd wrote:
I think you misread that. "A nonzero amount of survivability" refers to the 10 defense rating. "Excess threat" refers to the hit rating.

In other words, "On a fight where your survivability matters, more survivability (10 def) is preferable to more threat (10 hit rating)."


No, I got it right :D

I was arguing that increased threat (by means of increased dps) also adds a nonzero amount of survivability, albeit a much smaller non-zero amount than what an equal amount of added defence adds.

In the case of one gem it really doesn't matter, and defence is better than hit, I know. In the case of zero hitrating, dps-capped dps, and people dying to missed taunts (trust me, I've seen it several times, even from co-tanks with my level of gear), then hitrating adds superior survivability compared to defence.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 11:14 am

yappo wrote:
theckhd wrote:
I think you misread that. "A nonzero amount of survivability" refers to the 10 defense rating. "Excess threat" refers to the hit rating.

In other words, "On a fight where your survivability matters, more survivability (10 def) is preferable to more threat (10 hit rating)."


No, I got it right :D

I was arguing that increased threat (by means of increased dps) also adds a nonzero amount of survivability, albeit a much smaller non-zero amount than what an equal amount of added defence adds.

In the case of one gem it really doesn't matter, and defence is better than hit, I know. In the case of zero hitrating, dps-capped dps, and people dying to missed taunts (trust me, I've seen it several times, even from co-tanks with my level of gear), then hitrating adds superior survivability compared to defence.


I understood your point, but the question "Is it really a nonzero bonus?" still doesn't make any sense. There are only two ways I can imagine interpreting it:

1) Since I said that defense gives a nonzero bonus to survivability, you could read your question as, "Is 10 defense really a nonzero bonus?" I think it's pretty obvious that this doesn't make sense.

2) Given the point you were making, you could also interpret it as, "Does 10 defense really give more survivability than 10 hit rating?" Except that later in the paragraph you admit that there's no way 10 hit rating would be a bigger survivability increase than 10 defense.

I figured you must have misread it as if I was referring to something else being non-zero.

As for the missed taunts scenario you describe, I don't think it's fair to call that "superior survivability." Survivability refers to your survivability as a tank, not some sort of nebulous "raid survivability." The situation you've described is a threat problem, not a survivability problem. In other words:

- Tank dies from too much damage -> Survivability problem
- Tank loses aggro -> Threat problem

Defense rating addresses the first, but doesn't address the second. Hit rating (and STR, Expertise, etc) address the second, but generally not the first (ignore parry-haste for the moment).
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 1:22 pm

theckhd wrote:
- Tank dies from too much damage -> Survivability problem
- Tank loses aggro -> Threat problem


Fair enough :D
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Dantriges » Fri May 07, 2010 1:43 pm

Hm, DPS is riding my tail pretty hard,so I´d rather prefer to take hit even in progression set. Perhaps it´s different for LK hero, but well have to see. Losing abit of def is preferable in my opinion instead of reequipping to a piece I don´t even have perhaps..
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby golfinguy » Sun May 09, 2010 11:05 am

Dantriges wrote:Hm, DPS is riding my tail pretty hard,so I´d rather prefer to take hit even in progression set. Perhaps it´s different for LK hero, but well have to see. Losing abit of def is preferable in my opinion instead of reequipping to a piece I don´t even have perhaps..


I don't mind using one gem slot to soft-cap hit, but its better IMHO to use some carefully selected gear items rather than get a small amount of hit from a gem. For instance, the Broken Ram Skull Helm and the tier gloves both have hit on them and are still very good pieces (2nd bis in both cases?) (Spaulders of the Blood Princes too if you can get your 2 piece bonus from something else). And always enchant your weapon with Accuracy IMO :wink: . Equipping these will get you a lot of hit that you would find hard to get from gem slots, and you're not sacrificing much at all to get it.

Now like you, I'm currently using a few gem slots for hit because I do not have all of the pieces I listed above. But my end state goal is to never use more than one slot for soft-capping hit or exp.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Shoju » Mon May 10, 2010 7:52 am

I wanted to let people know that I have been searching through the parses for my ICC nights to get a better handle on how Mongoose is working.

After a sample size of 9 hours of raid boss fight time, I can give you the following information.

With a 2.6 speed 1h'd weapon, I am experiencing an average uptime of 29.32% on Mongoose.

After looking through a sample size of 9 hours 32 minutes of raid boss fight time for a another raider,

with a 1.7 speed 1h'd weapon, they were experiencing an average uptime of 25.32% on Mongoose.

at 25%, it seems that mongoose is slightly inferior to 26 agi to weapon, and at 29% it is slightly better than 26agi.

The parses that I used included a variety of bosses running the full gamut of bosses available in ICC. My next plan is to go back through the parses and break it down on a boss per boss basis to get a better picture. At least with these types of general looks, it would seem that using a slower DPS weapon will yield higher uptime.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon May 10, 2010 8:28 am

So, in a given fight, 25-29% of death scenarios are mitigated by having additional armor and dodge. The remaining 71-75% of death scenarios are hurt by having no weapon enchant benefit whatsoever.

This is based on the assumption that Mongoose procs are totally random, and thus randomly distributed throughout the fight. For Blood Draining, on the other hand, procs are clustered during death scenarios because it only fires when low on health. Thus, Blood Draining is usually available except when multiple death scenarios stack back-to-back, with no time to rebuild the buff.

Exceptional Agility of course is always present, and Accuracy has no survivability benefit in death scenarios.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Shoju » Mon May 10, 2010 9:26 am

In the content that I'm currently working on (LK10 normal) I'm normally the last to die, and I would agree that Blood Draining would be far better in a situation where you are experiencing tank death scenarios that lead to wipes.

At this point, our wipes on LK have been from infest in P1, Spirits in P2 not getting picked up fast enough (my cotank on my last night of work was not a tank by trade, so it took some prodding to get him to do things right) or Defile in P3.

At least for the time being, I would say that Mongoose is a fantastic enchant for someone looking for an enchant on their threat weapon.

Blood Draining is the EH/survivability enchant of choice.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Barathorn » Wed May 12, 2010 12:04 am

Shoju wrote:In the content that I'm currently working on (LK10 normal) I'm normally the last to die, and I would agree that Blood Draining would be far better in a situation where you are experiencing tank death scenarios that lead to wipes.

At this point, our wipes on LK have been from infest in P1, Spirits in P2 not getting picked up fast enough (my cotank on my last night of work was not a tank by trade, so it took some prodding to get him to do things right) or Defile in P3.

At least for the time being, I would say that Mongoose is a fantastic enchant for someone looking for an enchant on their threat weapon.

Blood Draining is the EH/survivability enchant of choice.


I agree about Blood Draining but I would also throw +26 agility into the mix as a static constant. I have not even considered swapping for another enchant on my tanking weapon in ICC10 simply because I haven't yet experianced a tank death scenario that requires it. I expect the LK to make me re-evaluate this.

I don't think you can wrong with +26 agility for your tanking weapon. I don't like procs so mongoose isn't an option for me.

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed May 12, 2010 12:12 pm

I would say that exceptional agility is probably a slightly better choice than mongoose in the current environment, if the uptime we've been seeing in parses is to be trusted. It's a bit lower than theory would suggest, but that could just be a fundamental limitation of the theory (nobody keeps to their 969 for 9+ hours straight).

Mongoose is probably still slightly better for threat at current uptimes, thanks to the haste bonus. But from a purely defensive perspective, Superior Agility gives roughly equivalent (if not better) average avoidance and eliminates the randomness inherent with Mongoose.

That said, I've been enchanting Accuracy on everything lately, but if I had to go with a defensive enchant it would be Blood Draining or Agility.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Sake » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:25 am

Hi

Since I respecced from blacksmith to engineer I was wondering if I should take the nitro boost enchant for the boots. I think the sprint can be veeeeeeeeery useful in certain situations (putricide & sindragosa hardmode, maybe even LK), imho definetly more valuable than 22 stam. I wouldn't bother about the boot enchant if there wouln't be these malfunctions, which are accordingly to other engineers very rare but still you will need a parachute, so no more 225 armor on cloak. So with 22 stam and 225 armor gone on enchants gaining some agi and the nitro boosts I'm not really sure, the sprint is really "expensive". I'd like to have 2 pairs of boots/cloaks to switch for bossfights, but since 277 valithria boots dind't drop once with 2 maintanks this is not a valid option currently :<
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:19 am

I would put the rockets on a second pair of boots (probably your older pair) and use them for those fights, if you wish to use them. I would not put them on my primary boots, and I would not recommend that others put them on their primary boots.

That said, I know a few tanks here do use them in their main gear set. The alternative 267 health isn't as great when health is so inflated right now in Icecrown Citadel.
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