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3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 7:39 am

theckhd wrote:1) We were tanking 4H perfectly fine before we had Hand of Reckoning, as long as the other tank wasn't also a Paladin


True.

theckhd wrote:2) In your example, everything would have been OK if the Paladin had used Righteous Defense as his first taunt, and the Warrior waited to taunt the other boss until after RD (i.e. that wipe was the paladin's mistake, because he didn't use his abilities in the right order).


Also true: The point still being, that had he been taunt-hit-capped, everything would have been fine and the issue would never have arisen.

theckhd wrote:3) Gemming for hit in your high-survival gear lowers your survival on progression fights.(...)


Here a very valid point. But by how much exactly? Digren recommended def/stam in yellow sockets, assuming a valid socket bonus. How much "time to live" would you loose by replacing, say, one def/stam with a hit/stam? Would it even be noticable?

To narrow the question: The stam is the same for the two gems, so how much survival do you get for 10 def rating, assuming ofc def-capped?

(I should maybe add that as a drainei, I have permanent access to the +1% hit heroic presence buff, making for a more relaxed hit cap)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 8:29 am

Ajire wrote:
theckhd wrote:3) Gemming for hit in your high-survival gear lowers your survival on progression fights.(...)


Here a very valid point. But by how much exactly? Digren recommended def/stam in yellow sockets, assuming a valid socket bonus. How much "time to live" would you loose by replacing, say, one def/stam with a hit/stam? Would it even be noticable?

To narrow the question: The stam is the same for the two gems, so how much survival do you get for 10 def rating, assuming ofc def-capped?

(I should maybe add that as a drainei, I have permanent access to the +1% hit heroic presence buff, making for a more relaxed hit cap)

The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.

If the fight doesn't test your survivability and tank swaps are important, then you could gem for hit. But if you do that in the same gear you use for the survival fight, you're reducing your survivability for the other encounter. On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.

Doing that lets you max your survivability on the fights where it matters while still letting you hit-cap for the one or two "gimmick" fights you might encounter along the way.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Marblehead » Fri May 07, 2010 8:31 am

Ajire wrote:
Marblehead wrote:You may have a point there, but that's not a reason to gem/enchant hit rating (except Accuracy). Why? Because the base miss chance for taunts on bosses is 17% (spell hit cap). To cap that you need to reach 9% spell hit (= 237 hit rating = 7.23% melee hit) and use the RD glyph.


Yes, I believe I said that:

(...)To avoid taunt failure, I would strongly recommend enchanting/gemming for hit until the 8% cap is reached - for most tanks it's sufficient with 1-3 hit/stam green gems in yellow sockets - and using the glyph of Righteous Defense.

You got me there. I totally missed that. I apologize.


Ajire wrote:
Marblehead wrote:I'm sure there are many paladins out there that would prefer to use some other glyph than the RD one.


So it's a matter of preference? preference is not a reason, because then my preference be taunt-hit-capped is just as valid a reason to do it.

Can you elaborate on the reason not to gem/enchant for hit?


Maybe I didn't phrased my thoughts correctly. What I was trying to say is that since we're talking about surviving, wouldn't the HoSalv glyph be a better choice?

As Theck said, you shouldn't mess with your progression set. That is supposed to be the all-mighty EH-maximized set. Leaving the glyph aside, it's better to carry in the bags 2-3 items with hit, 2-3 items with expertise and 2-3 items with strength for threat (like DC:G) and replace whatever is needed in every boss fight (these items can also be enchanted/gemmed accordingly to amplify their purpose). That leaves the progression set intact for when you really gonna need it.

Edit: Geez, Theck somehow beat me to it while I was writing. :P
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 8:54 am

theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.


Quite small indeed. My left-hand napkin calculation came up with 0.3 % total avoidance for 10 def rating (pre-DimisingReturn). If such small probability determines if you win or loose, you might as well play in the national lottery instead.

Now, I fully appreciate that the whole is the sum of it's components and if you swap three or four def/stam gems for hit/stam, I can understand that it may have a significant impact on survivability.

theckhd wrote:On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.


I'd prefer not to as I already carry four, completely different sets of gear with me at all times: PvE protection, PvE Holy and their pvp counterparts (and a few pieces of RP gear, to cap matters). Ganking unsuspecting alliance players at the entrances to various raids is a popular horde recreation on my server, and being ready to respond to hostilities at a moments notice is a very good idea - oh the sweet life on an rp-pvp server :wink:

But the idea has some merit and I'll see if it can come about at some point, if I end up with spare emblems of frost and nothing to spend them on, which is not likely to happen in any near future.

Thanks for your inputs :)
Last edited by Ajire on Fri May 07, 2010 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 9:22 am

Marblehead wrote:Maybe I didn't phrased my thoughts correctly. What I was trying to say is that since we're talking about surviving, wouldn't the HoSalv glyph be a better choice?


It could be, but personally I'm not too keen on casting HoSalv on myself, when I have a 10k hunter and a 8k retridin tailing me on the threat-meter :)

Also, as you can probably infer from my last reply to Theck, my second spec is holy, which I primarily use for my guilds pvp activities and as such making a specialized über-survival build/glyph-set for pve tanking is not an option for me. Constant respeccing and glyph changing is also a very costly affair and with the constant need for raid consumables, I would rather not go down that path either. I just have to squeeze the best I can out of one all-round build and glyph-set. Therefore I've chosen to go for the taunt hit-cap, as this has caused some issues in our progression in the past. (Saurfang, dang those 5 secs where he hits the tank with the rune hurts the morale of the raid - or the time when our festergut tank blew up, geez)

I'd also thank you for your input :)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 9:45 am

theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.



Is it really a nonzero bonus? Arguably increased dps lowers the total time of the fight, which gives the opponent less time to kill you. Btw, I'm not in the least arguing that hit would be better for survival than defence, just that hitrating arguably DOES have an indirect survivability effect.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 07, 2010 9:49 am

Ajire wrote:
theckhd wrote:On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.


I'd prefer not to as I already carry four, completely different sets of gear with me at all times: PvE protection, PvE Holy and their pvp counterparts (and a few pieces of RP gear, to cap matters). Ganking unsuspecting alliance players at the entrances to various raids is a popular horde recreation on my server, and being ready to respond to hostilities at a moments notice is a very good idea - oh the sweet life on an rp-pvp server :wink:

While I understand your reasoning, I cannot hurt the survivability of progression tanks by suggesting that they harm their best progression gear set with hit rating gems. I state this in my guide:

Digren wrote:Gems and enchants can be used to complete gear in one of two possible ways:
    1. to overcome a deficit in the gear's stats, such as when using gems and enchants for defense rating when wearing iLvl 213 Naxxramas items, or
    2. to maximize and specialize gear, such as when stacking effective health enhancements on the best effective health equipment.
In general, it is better to maximize and specialize gear to be the best it can in one role. Then, maximize and specialize an alternate piece for a second role, and so forth. This way, by swapping gear, a tank can be best suited for the needs of the encounter.


Basically, you wish to gem for hit rating to overcome a perceived hit rating deficit in your progression gear. Theck instead proposed that you maximize and specialize gear. I stand by maximize and specialize as the better choice.

That said, I keep this in the guide for a reason:
Digren wrote:Remember, only you, the experienced tankadin, knows what's best for you given your gear and raid role.


If you think you can do better by doing things your own way - great! The only people your choices affect are you and your raid. I like people to experiment and then, if they truly think they have a better way, come back here and convince everyone. That's how we make progress and keep the recommendations from becoming stale. In this case, though, I think the existing recommendations are spot on.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri May 07, 2010 9:53 am

Glyphs are cheap and flexible. Carry a stack of all the ones you might want to use with you, and reglyph as needed for different fights.

Carrying a few pieces of hit gear around to swap in as needed is a better solution than gemming hit in survival gear, unless you're the sort who'll regem fight by fight.

Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.

However, I'm not sure what your progression level is, but the 15% buff has relaxed gearing requirements by a ton, gemming hit is certainly a valid use of that extra item budget. If it makes your life easier, by all means do it. Those of us advocating against it are being purists. When you hit H-LK or H-Sindragosa, you'll probably regem, but until then, gemming threat is perfectly valid.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 07, 2010 9:57 am

yappo wrote:
theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.



Is it really a nonzero bonus? Arguably increased dps lowers the total time of the fight, which gives the opponent less time to kill you. Btw, I'm not in the least arguing that hit would be better for survival than defence, just that hitrating arguably DOES have an indirect survivability effect.

A death scenario isn't the entire fight, though. A death scenario consists of a specific subset of abilities within a certain window. Adding 10 seconds onto a fight doesn't mean your TTL must be increased by 10 seconds. It means that, maybe, the boss will have the opportunity to create one more death scenario.

I guess I see that as more of a % chance thing than a survivability thing. What are the odds of there being another death scenario due to a slightly longer fight? I'd lump gearing to avoid that chance the same as I lump gearing for avoidance in general - below gearing to survive the inevitable death scenarios that do arise.

This is even more true if your choice to gear to avoid the chance of another death scenario means that you are less able or less likely to survive all the other death scenarios. While that may have a survivability effect, it might be lower, not higher.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 10:20 am

Meloree wrote:Glyphs are cheap and flexible. Carry a stack of all the ones you might want to use with you, and reglyph as needed for different fights.


Well, that varies quite a bit from server to server, and the definition of "cheap" from player to player. For me, whos coffers seldom exceed 1k gold, on a server in the expensive end, that is not an option, when I need repairs and raid consumables.

Meloree wrote:Carrying a few pieces of hit gear around to swap in as needed is a better solution than gemming hit in survival gear, unless you're the sort who'll regem fight by fight.


Yes, point taken already :mrgreen:

Meloree wrote:Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.


Yes, these could indeed make HoSalv a viable, if caution-needing, damage reduction cooldown - Does it stack with DP for a nifty -70% on all damage taken? In any case I'll definitely remember it, in case I need to get creative to survive.

Meloree wrote:However, I'm not sure what your progression level is, but the 15% buff has relaxed gearing requirements by a ton, gemming hit is certainly a valid use of that extra item budget. If it makes your life easier, by all means do it. Those of us advocating against it are being purists. When you hit H-LK or H-Sindragosa, you'll probably regem, but until then, gemming threat is perfectly valid.


I suspected the buff had a say in this also - but you are right, we are currently working on Professor Putricide.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri May 07, 2010 10:25 am

Ajire wrote:
Meloree wrote:Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.


Yes, these could indeed make HoSalv a viable, if caution-needing, damage reduction cooldown - Does it stack with DP for a nifty -70% on all damage taken? In any case I'll definitely remember it, in case I need to get creative to survive.


Multiplicative stacking. 60% total damage reduction from both at once.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 10:30 am

Meloree wrote:
Ajire wrote:
Meloree wrote:Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.


Yes, these could indeed make HoSalv a viable, if caution-needing, damage reduction cooldown - Does it stack with DP for a nifty -70% on all damage taken? In any case I'll definitely remember it, in case I need to get creative to survive.


Multiplicative stacking. 60% total damage reduction from both at once.


So basically a warriors Shield Wall, but with half the cooldown - very neat indeed :D Thanks for that tip.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 10:41 am

yappo wrote:
theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.



Is it really a nonzero bonus? Arguably increased dps lowers the total time of the fight, which gives the opponent less time to kill you. Btw, I'm not in the least arguing that hit would be better for survival than defence, just that hitrating arguably DOES have an indirect survivability effect.


I think you misread that. "A nonzero amount of survivability" refers to the 10 defense rating. "Excess threat" refers to the hit rating.

In other words, "On a fight where your survivability matters, more survivability (10 def) is preferable to more threat (10 hit rating)."
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 10:49 am

theckhd wrote:
I think you misread that. "A nonzero amount of survivability" refers to the 10 defense rating. "Excess threat" refers to the hit rating.

In other words, "On a fight where your survivability matters, more survivability (10 def) is preferable to more threat (10 hit rating)."


No, I got it right :D

I was arguing that increased threat (by means of increased dps) also adds a nonzero amount of survivability, albeit a much smaller non-zero amount than what an equal amount of added defence adds.

In the case of one gem it really doesn't matter, and defence is better than hit, I know. In the case of zero hitrating, dps-capped dps, and people dying to missed taunts (trust me, I've seen it several times, even from co-tanks with my level of gear), then hitrating adds superior survivability compared to defence.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 11:14 am

yappo wrote:
theckhd wrote:
I think you misread that. "A nonzero amount of survivability" refers to the 10 defense rating. "Excess threat" refers to the hit rating.

In other words, "On a fight where your survivability matters, more survivability (10 def) is preferable to more threat (10 hit rating)."


No, I got it right :D

I was arguing that increased threat (by means of increased dps) also adds a nonzero amount of survivability, albeit a much smaller non-zero amount than what an equal amount of added defence adds.

In the case of one gem it really doesn't matter, and defence is better than hit, I know. In the case of zero hitrating, dps-capped dps, and people dying to missed taunts (trust me, I've seen it several times, even from co-tanks with my level of gear), then hitrating adds superior survivability compared to defence.


I understood your point, but the question "Is it really a nonzero bonus?" still doesn't make any sense. There are only two ways I can imagine interpreting it:

1) Since I said that defense gives a nonzero bonus to survivability, you could read your question as, "Is 10 defense really a nonzero bonus?" I think it's pretty obvious that this doesn't make sense.

2) Given the point you were making, you could also interpret it as, "Does 10 defense really give more survivability than 10 hit rating?" Except that later in the paragraph you admit that there's no way 10 hit rating would be a bigger survivability increase than 10 defense.

I figured you must have misread it as if I was referring to something else being non-zero.

As for the missed taunts scenario you describe, I don't think it's fair to call that "superior survivability." Survivability refers to your survivability as a tank, not some sort of nebulous "raid survivability." The situation you've described is a threat problem, not a survivability problem. In other words:

- Tank dies from too much damage -> Survivability problem
- Tank loses aggro -> Threat problem

Defense rating addresses the first, but doesn't address the second. Hit rating (and STR, Expertise, etc) address the second, but generally not the first (ignore parry-haste for the moment).
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