3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:21 am

Altais wrote:Well I got that... my question is what if the socket it red? Should I throw a 10 AGIL 15 STAM in there just to get the 21 STAM total? OR just do a 30 STAM gem..


Always depends on YOUR tanking situation.

Anyway, if the bonus is 12 stamina, I think most everyone here agrees that agi/stam gem is a no-brainer.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:55 am

Altais wrote:Well I got that... my question is what if the socket it red? Should I throw a 10 AGIL 15 STAM in there just to get the 21 STAM total? OR just do a 30 STAM gem..

There's not a definitive answer, so I can't give you one. Based on your gear level, you may or may not wish to match +6 stamina socket bonuses. Read the "Tank Levels" and "How to Stack Stamina" sections of the guide. Then, make your own decision or post in the Gear Check and Advice thread and someone else will help you.

Also, you earlier asked about a piece that had, say a +9 stamina socket bonus and three sockets - one red, one yellow, one blue. In that case, as in every case, you put a +30 stamina gem in the blue socket. Then, if you want the bonus, you have two non-blue sockets to match to get it. That basically means that each non-blue socket has an associated +4.5 stamina socket bonus. Do you want that bonus? Maybe. It's not very good, but a starting tank may want it because his or her overall avoidance and defense are low, so there is benefit to get dodge or agility plus defense plus some stamina. Again, you need to decide this based on your tank level, or you need to go post a link to your profile and ask for help if you can't figure it out on your own.

Good luck!
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Nidokuin » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:14 am

quick question.

You say that we should only be really matching 12+ sockets, but for example with the frost emblem would it be better to socket that (1 red, 1 blue, 1 empty after buckle) giving a +9 stam bonus as with the 10 agility and 15 stam gem so instead of getting 30 stam from that socket i would in effect be getting 24 stam and 10 agility giving me armor/crit.

Thanks
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Barathorn » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:52 am

Nidokuin wrote:quick question.

You say that we should only be really matching 12+ sockets, but for example with the frost emblem would it be better to socket that (1 red, 1 blue, 1 empty after buckle) giving a +9 stam bonus as with the 10 agility and 15 stam gem so instead of getting 30 stam from that socket i would in effect be getting 24 stam and 10 agility giving me armor/crit.

Thanks


That is how I generally socket for a two socket +9 bonus if it is a blue/red socket. I dont tend to socket for the bonus when I have 3 sockets of different colours, blue/red/yellow for example. Plus I find that the pieces that have 3 sockets generally [chest + legs] at my progression level dictate which way I socket them anyway irrespective of the +12 socket bonus.

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Marblehead » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:29 am

I have a small correction to make to this amazing guide. It doesn't make any significant difference, it's more for the sake of precision.
There aren't any +9 avoidance socket bonuses in game. As far as tanking gear is concerned, socket bonuses (for items with 174 ilvl or higher) are as follows:

There are 2 categories of stats as socket bonuses in tank items.
Category 1: Stamina, Block Value
Category 2: Defense, Dodge, Parry, Block, Hit, Expertise

Any piece with 3 sockets or a head piece with one meta + one other socket: +12 of category 1 or +8 of category 2
Any piece with 2 sockets: +9 of category 1 or +6 of category 2
Any piece with 1 socket: +6 of category 1 or +4 of category 2


The only exception of the above I could find is the paladin T7 head with +6 expertise instead of +8.

Edit: To spare digren from having to run the calculations.
1.2 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is +8 avoidance rating (10+8)/15=1.27
1.3 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is +8 avoidance rating (10*1.1*0.83+8)/(30-15-20/11)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:16 am

Nidokuin wrote:quick question.

You say that we should only be really matching 12+ sockets, but for example with the frost emblem would it be better to socket that (1 red, 1 blue, 1 empty after buckle) giving a +9 stam bonus as with the 10 agility and 15 stam gem so instead of getting 30 stam from that socket i would in effect be getting 24 stam and 10 agility giving me armor/crit.

Thanks

If I understand your question correctly, you are talking about a belt with one red socket and one blue socket, where you can add a buckle for a third colorless socket. The socket bonus in this case is +9 stamina.

I call out what to do about colorless sockets:
Blue Gem Slot or Colorless Gem Slot

So both the blue and colorless sockets get pure stamina gems.

Then, the piece has a red socket and a "good" (for the purpose of this discussion) socket bonus.
Red Gem Slot (with a good socket bonus)

So put an agi/sta gem in the red socket, picking up the associated +9 sta bonus.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:48 am

Marblehead wrote:I have a small correction to make to this amazing guide. It doesn't make any significant difference, it's more for the sake of precision.
There aren't any +9 avoidance socket bonuses in game. As far as tanking gear is concerned, socket bonuses (for items with 174 ilvl or higher) are as follows:

Thanks! I updated the table. At the same time, I changed the armor/stamina ratio from the old 11-to-1 to the newer 10-to-1 in use by most end-game tankadins today. This shuffled a few things around.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:09 am

This is a deceptively deep guide that I am only now starting to fully appreciate (I just realised I made a mistake regemming for pure stamina with +6sta bonus before I switched my chest enchant from defence to health).

A minor point - I think the "Digren says..." recommendation on shield enchants needs updating now that stamina is ranked #1.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:32 am

econ21 wrote:A minor point - I think the "Digren says..." recommendation on shield enchants needs updating now that stamina is ranked #1.

Oops - thanks!
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Marblehead » Mon May 03, 2010 6:55 am

I noticed that some people get confused about gemming tri-color items. How about we add the following in the list?

0.97 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] and [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow and red socket on a tri-color item, if the socket bonus is +8 avoidance rating (10+10*1.1*0.83+8)/(60-30-20/10)
1.2 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] and [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow and red socket on a tri-color item, if the socket bonus is +12 stamina rating (10+10*1.1*0.83)/(60-30-12-20/10)=1.27

(I hope my calculations are correct :P )
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 6:24 am

Thank you for this very illuminating guide, I - for instance - had never thought of Agi as a valuable tankadin stat and a candidate for my red sockets.

However, I would like to comment on Hit Rating:

Digren wrote:(...)
  • Decrease or remove the chance of a missed taunt.
The second reason to stack hit rating may sound like a good idea, but keep in mind that paladin tanks have three taunts:
  1. Hand of Reckoning
  2. Righteous Defense
  3. Hand of Protection
It is a rare case that the first two fail sequentially, and the third is a guaranteed success provided the tank is second on the aggro list, so in general stacking hit rating for taunts is neither necessary or desired.


While not untrue, using both Righteous Defense and HoP for tank-switching scenarios can be very risky business.

I'd like to illustrate this using the Four Horsemen encounter, and this is based on an actual wipe: During the switch of Thane Korth'azz and Baron Rivendare, the warrior and tankadin taunted using their single target taunts; the HoR-taunt missed and reacting instinctively, the tankadin hit Righteous defense, with the result that he taunted both bosses off the warrior and died very quickly. BoP had resulted in the same thing.

Evidently, any encounter involving more than one mob/boss is unsuited for using RD and HoP as backup taunts! To avoid taunt failure, I would strongly recommend enchanting/gemming for hit until the 8% cap is reached - for most tanks it's sufficient with 1-3 hit/stam green gems in yellow sockets - and using the glyph of Righteous Defense. A missed taunt is such a dumb reason to wipe :)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Marblehead » Fri May 07, 2010 7:06 am

You may have a point there, but that's not a reason to gem/enchant hit rating (except Accuracy). Why? Because the base miss chance for taunts on bosses is 17% (spell hit cap). To cap that you need to reach 9% spell hit (= 237 hit rating = 7.23% melee hit) and use the RD glyph. I'm sure there are many paladins out there that would prefer to use some other glyph than the RD one.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 7:18 am

Ajire wrote:I'd like to illustrate this using the Four Horsemen encounter, and this is based on an actual wipe: During the switch of Thane Korth'azz and Baron Rivendare, the warrior and tankadin taunted using their single target taunts; the HoR-taunt missed and reacting instinctively, the tankadin hit Righteous defense, with the result that he taunted both bosses off the warrior and died very quickly. BoP had resulted in the same thing.

Evidently, any encounter involving more than one mob/boss is unsuited for using RD and HoP as backup taunts! To avoid taunt failure, I would strongly recommend enchanting/gemming for hit until the 8% cap is reached - for most tanks it's sufficient with 1-3 hit/stam green gems in yellow sockets - and using the glyph of Righteous Defense. A missed taunt is such a dumb reason to wipe :)


I disagree on three counts.
1) We were tanking 4H perfectly fine before we had Hand of Reckoning, as long as the other tank wasn't also a Paladin.
2) In your example, everything would have been OK if the Paladin had used Righteous Defense as his first taunt, and the Warrior waited to taunt the other boss until after RD (i.e. that wipe was the paladin's mistake, because he didn't use his abilities in the right order).
3) Gemming for hit in your high-survival gear lowers your survival on progression fights. It's better to swap in an older item with hit for the few fights where you want your taunts to be hit-capped (gemming hit in those items would be fine).
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 7:25 am

Marblehead wrote:You may have a point there, but that's not a reason to gem/enchant hit rating (except Accuracy). Why? Because the base miss chance for taunts on bosses is 17% (spell hit cap). To cap that you need to reach 9% spell hit (= 237 hit rating = 7.23% melee hit) and use the RD glyph.


Yes, I believe I said that:

(...)To avoid taunt failure, I would strongly recommend enchanting/gemming for hit until the 8% cap is reached - for most tanks it's sufficient with 1-3 hit/stam green gems in yellow sockets - and using the glyph of Righteous Defense.


However, I was erroneous in saying that the needed cap for taunt hit whilst using the glyph is 8% - I stand corrected.

Marblehead wrote:I'm sure there are many paladins out there that would prefer to use some other glyph than the RD one.


So it's a matter of preference? preference is not a reason, because then my preference be taunt-hit-capped is just as valid a reason to do it.

Can you elaborate on the reason not to gem/enchant for hit?
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 7:29 am

Ajire wrote:Can you elaborate on the reason not to gem/enchant for hit?

theckhd wrote:3) Gemming for hit in your high-survival gear lowers your survival on progression fights. It's better to swap in an older item with hit for the few fights where you want your taunts to be hit-capped (gemming hit in those items would be fine).


Swapping in a hit item > gemming hit in your all-purpose gear.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 7:39 am

theckhd wrote:1) We were tanking 4H perfectly fine before we had Hand of Reckoning, as long as the other tank wasn't also a Paladin


True.

theckhd wrote:2) In your example, everything would have been OK if the Paladin had used Righteous Defense as his first taunt, and the Warrior waited to taunt the other boss until after RD (i.e. that wipe was the paladin's mistake, because he didn't use his abilities in the right order).


Also true: The point still being, that had he been taunt-hit-capped, everything would have been fine and the issue would never have arisen.

theckhd wrote:3) Gemming for hit in your high-survival gear lowers your survival on progression fights.(...)


Here a very valid point. But by how much exactly? Digren recommended def/stam in yellow sockets, assuming a valid socket bonus. How much "time to live" would you loose by replacing, say, one def/stam with a hit/stam? Would it even be noticable?

To narrow the question: The stam is the same for the two gems, so how much survival do you get for 10 def rating, assuming ofc def-capped?

(I should maybe add that as a drainei, I have permanent access to the +1% hit heroic presence buff, making for a more relaxed hit cap)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri May 07, 2010 8:29 am

Ajire wrote:
theckhd wrote:3) Gemming for hit in your high-survival gear lowers your survival on progression fights.(...)


Here a very valid point. But by how much exactly? Digren recommended def/stam in yellow sockets, assuming a valid socket bonus. How much "time to live" would you loose by replacing, say, one def/stam with a hit/stam? Would it even be noticable?

To narrow the question: The stam is the same for the two gems, so how much survival do you get for 10 def rating, assuming ofc def-capped?

(I should maybe add that as a drainei, I have permanent access to the +1% hit heroic presence buff, making for a more relaxed hit cap)

The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.

If the fight doesn't test your survivability and tank swaps are important, then you could gem for hit. But if you do that in the same gear you use for the survival fight, you're reducing your survivability for the other encounter. On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.

Doing that lets you max your survivability on the fights where it matters while still letting you hit-cap for the one or two "gimmick" fights you might encounter along the way.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Marblehead » Fri May 07, 2010 8:31 am

Ajire wrote:
Marblehead wrote:You may have a point there, but that's not a reason to gem/enchant hit rating (except Accuracy). Why? Because the base miss chance for taunts on bosses is 17% (spell hit cap). To cap that you need to reach 9% spell hit (= 237 hit rating = 7.23% melee hit) and use the RD glyph.


Yes, I believe I said that:

(...)To avoid taunt failure, I would strongly recommend enchanting/gemming for hit until the 8% cap is reached - for most tanks it's sufficient with 1-3 hit/stam green gems in yellow sockets - and using the glyph of Righteous Defense.

You got me there. I totally missed that. I apologize.


Ajire wrote:
Marblehead wrote:I'm sure there are many paladins out there that would prefer to use some other glyph than the RD one.


So it's a matter of preference? preference is not a reason, because then my preference be taunt-hit-capped is just as valid a reason to do it.

Can you elaborate on the reason not to gem/enchant for hit?


Maybe I didn't phrased my thoughts correctly. What I was trying to say is that since we're talking about surviving, wouldn't the HoSalv glyph be a better choice?

As Theck said, you shouldn't mess with your progression set. That is supposed to be the all-mighty EH-maximized set. Leaving the glyph aside, it's better to carry in the bags 2-3 items with hit, 2-3 items with expertise and 2-3 items with strength for threat (like DC:G) and replace whatever is needed in every boss fight (these items can also be enchanted/gemmed accordingly to amplify their purpose). That leaves the progression set intact for when you really gonna need it.

Edit: Geez, Theck somehow beat me to it while I was writing. :P
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 8:54 am

theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.


Quite small indeed. My left-hand napkin calculation came up with 0.3 % total avoidance for 10 def rating (pre-DimisingReturn). If such small probability determines if you win or loose, you might as well play in the national lottery instead.

Now, I fully appreciate that the whole is the sum of it's components and if you swap three or four def/stam gems for hit/stam, I can understand that it may have a significant impact on survivability.

theckhd wrote:On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.


I'd prefer not to as I already carry four, completely different sets of gear with me at all times: PvE protection, PvE Holy and their pvp counterparts (and a few pieces of RP gear, to cap matters). Ganking unsuspecting alliance players at the entrances to various raids is a popular horde recreation on my server, and being ready to respond to hostilities at a moments notice is a very good idea - oh the sweet life on an rp-pvp server :wink:

But the idea has some merit and I'll see if it can come about at some point, if I end up with spare emblems of frost and nothing to spend them on, which is not likely to happen in any near future.

Thanks for your inputs :)
Last edited by Ajire on Fri May 07, 2010 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 9:22 am

Marblehead wrote:Maybe I didn't phrased my thoughts correctly. What I was trying to say is that since we're talking about surviving, wouldn't the HoSalv glyph be a better choice?


It could be, but personally I'm not too keen on casting HoSalv on myself, when I have a 10k hunter and a 8k retridin tailing me on the threat-meter :)

Also, as you can probably infer from my last reply to Theck, my second spec is holy, which I primarily use for my guilds pvp activities and as such making a specialized über-survival build/glyph-set for pve tanking is not an option for me. Constant respeccing and glyph changing is also a very costly affair and with the constant need for raid consumables, I would rather not go down that path either. I just have to squeeze the best I can out of one all-round build and glyph-set. Therefore I've chosen to go for the taunt hit-cap, as this has caused some issues in our progression in the past. (Saurfang, dang those 5 secs where he hits the tank with the rune hurts the morale of the raid - or the time when our festergut tank blew up, geez)

I'd also thank you for your input :)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Fri May 07, 2010 9:45 am

theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.



Is it really a nonzero bonus? Arguably increased dps lowers the total time of the fight, which gives the opponent less time to kill you. Btw, I'm not in the least arguing that hit would be better for survival than defence, just that hitrating arguably DOES have an indirect survivability effect.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 07, 2010 9:49 am

Ajire wrote:
theckhd wrote:On the other hand, if you just have an alternate pair of helm/boots/whatever with a bunch of hit rating on them, you could swap them in to hit-cap yourself on the few fights where it matters without any adverse effects.


I'd prefer not to as I already carry four, completely different sets of gear with me at all times: PvE protection, PvE Holy and their pvp counterparts (and a few pieces of RP gear, to cap matters). Ganking unsuspecting alliance players at the entrances to various raids is a popular horde recreation on my server, and being ready to respond to hostilities at a moments notice is a very good idea - oh the sweet life on an rp-pvp server :wink:

While I understand your reasoning, I cannot hurt the survivability of progression tanks by suggesting that they harm their best progression gear set with hit rating gems. I state this in my guide:

Digren wrote:Gems and enchants can be used to complete gear in one of two possible ways:
    1. to overcome a deficit in the gear's stats, such as when using gems and enchants for defense rating when wearing iLvl 213 Naxxramas items, or
    2. to maximize and specialize gear, such as when stacking effective health enhancements on the best effective health equipment.
In general, it is better to maximize and specialize gear to be the best it can in one role. Then, maximize and specialize an alternate piece for a second role, and so forth. This way, by swapping gear, a tank can be best suited for the needs of the encounter.


Basically, you wish to gem for hit rating to overcome a perceived hit rating deficit in your progression gear. Theck instead proposed that you maximize and specialize gear. I stand by maximize and specialize as the better choice.

That said, I keep this in the guide for a reason:
Digren wrote:Remember, only you, the experienced tankadin, knows what's best for you given your gear and raid role.


If you think you can do better by doing things your own way - great! The only people your choices affect are you and your raid. I like people to experiment and then, if they truly think they have a better way, come back here and convince everyone. That's how we make progress and keep the recommendations from becoming stale. In this case, though, I think the existing recommendations are spot on.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri May 07, 2010 9:53 am

Glyphs are cheap and flexible. Carry a stack of all the ones you might want to use with you, and reglyph as needed for different fights.

Carrying a few pieces of hit gear around to swap in as needed is a better solution than gemming hit in survival gear, unless you're the sort who'll regem fight by fight.

Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.

However, I'm not sure what your progression level is, but the 15% buff has relaxed gearing requirements by a ton, gemming hit is certainly a valid use of that extra item budget. If it makes your life easier, by all means do it. Those of us advocating against it are being purists. When you hit H-LK or H-Sindragosa, you'll probably regem, but until then, gemming threat is perfectly valid.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri May 07, 2010 9:57 am

yappo wrote:
theckhd wrote:The comparison is (10 def + socket bonus) vs. 15 stam vs. (10 hit rating + socket bonus). The TTL difference will be small, of course, but that's because we're dealing with small amounts of rating. But for any "progression" fight where your survivability is being tested, a nonzero amount of survivability is preferable to excess threat.



Is it really a nonzero bonus? Arguably increased dps lowers the total time of the fight, which gives the opponent less time to kill you. Btw, I'm not in the least arguing that hit would be better for survival than defence, just that hitrating arguably DOES have an indirect survivability effect.

A death scenario isn't the entire fight, though. A death scenario consists of a specific subset of abilities within a certain window. Adding 10 seconds onto a fight doesn't mean your TTL must be increased by 10 seconds. It means that, maybe, the boss will have the opportunity to create one more death scenario.

I guess I see that as more of a % chance thing than a survivability thing. What are the odds of there being another death scenario due to a slightly longer fight? I'd lump gearing to avoid that chance the same as I lump gearing for avoidance in general - below gearing to survive the inevitable death scenarios that do arise.

This is even more true if your choice to gear to avoid the chance of another death scenario means that you are less able or less likely to survive all the other death scenarios. While that may have a survivability effect, it might be lower, not higher.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Ajire » Fri May 07, 2010 10:20 am

Meloree wrote:Glyphs are cheap and flexible. Carry a stack of all the ones you might want to use with you, and reglyph as needed for different fights.


Well, that varies quite a bit from server to server, and the definition of "cheap" from player to player. For me, whos coffers seldom exceed 1k gold, on a server in the expensive end, that is not an option, when I need repairs and raid consumables.

Meloree wrote:Carrying a few pieces of hit gear around to swap in as needed is a better solution than gemming hit in survival gear, unless you're the sort who'll regem fight by fight.


Yes, point taken already :mrgreen:

Meloree wrote:Hunters can drop threat at will, if they're riding you and you suspect a need to salv, tell them to FD. Ret paladins have their own salv available to them, generally.


Yes, these could indeed make HoSalv a viable, if caution-needing, damage reduction cooldown - Does it stack with DP for a nifty -70% on all damage taken? In any case I'll definitely remember it, in case I need to get creative to survive.

Meloree wrote:However, I'm not sure what your progression level is, but the 15% buff has relaxed gearing requirements by a ton, gemming hit is certainly a valid use of that extra item budget. If it makes your life easier, by all means do it. Those of us advocating against it are being purists. When you hit H-LK or H-Sindragosa, you'll probably regem, but until then, gemming threat is perfectly valid.


I suspected the buff had a say in this also - but you are right, we are currently working on Professor Putricide.
Ajire
 
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