3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:48 pm

The stamina stacking conversion table is up to date.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:54 pm

Hm, so after searching around and not coming up with anything, I'm curious about one thing after plugging in the gear/gems in question through Rawr.

My questions stems from something like Pillars of Might (ilvl 264) with a Red, Blue and Yellow socket and a 12 stam bonus and not finding a Nightmare's Tear equated out.

Would dropping a Shifting Dreadstone, Solid Majestic Zircon and a Nightmare's Tear yield the same results if not slightly better in terms of EH over straight Solid Majestic Zircons?

Obviously you can only get away with this once but if the payout for that one time is worth it, I feel it should be listed out there.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:52 am

Fenrìr wrote:Hm, so after searching around and not coming up with anything, I'm curious about one thing after plugging in the gear/gems in question through Rawr.

My questions stems from something like Pillars of Might (ilvl 264) with a Red, Blue and Yellow socket and a 12 stam bonus and not finding a Nightmare's Tear equated out.

Would dropping a Shifting Dreadstone, Solid Majestic Zircon and a Nightmare's Tear yield the same results if not slightly better in terms of EH over straight Solid Majestic Zircons?

Obviously you can only get away with this once but if the payout for that one time is worth it, I feel it should be listed out there.


The existing suggestion for a tank with iLvl 264 gear:
- Solid Majestic Zircon (30 sta)
- Solid Majestic Zircon (30 sta)
- Solid Majestic Zircon (30 sta)
Net: 90 stamina, which is about 1091 health

Your suggestion for a tank with iLvl 264 gear:
- Shifting Dreadstone (10 agi, 15 sta)
- Solid Majestic Zircon (30 sta)
- Nightmare Tear (10 agi, 10 sta)
- Socket bonus (12 sta)
Net: 67 stamina plus 40 armor, which is in a pure physical mitigatable fight the equivalent of about 856 health (less for fights with any magic component)

So no, it doesn't yield the same or better EH.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:14 am

When, if ever, would Armsman make a comeback for a 'generic' pally tank?

My question is based on having read somewhere (possibly here, but not certain) that dps-spec dps scales better with gear compared to tank-spec dps. As tank threat to a major extent is based on the underlying dps it seems reasonable that at some point maintaining threat would become impossible.

Now, if the answer is: at an average ilevel 400 given the current mechanism, then that answer is in reality: never. But if the lines cross at, say ilevel 280, then we arguably have a point at which Armsman becomes the BiS enchant for gloves.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:28 pm

yappo wrote:When, if ever, would Armsman make a comeback for a 'generic' pally tank?

My question is based on having read somewhere (possibly here, but not certain) that dps-spec dps scales better with gear compared to tank-spec dps. As tank threat to a major extent is based on the underlying dps it seems reasonable that at some point maintaining threat would become impossible.

Now, if the answer is: at an average ilevel 400 given the current mechanism, then that answer is in reality: never. But if the lines cross at, say ilevel 280, then we arguably have a point at which Armsman becomes the BiS enchant for gloves.

That's a Theck question, well worth posting in its own thread in the advanced forum. :P
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Rhiannon » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:59 pm

From the OP: "Caution, never drop below 540 defense! Sometimes you may have to skip a low-cost stamina option to stay uncrittable." As far as I'm aware resilience still counts towards crit reduction in PvE as well as PvP, and as the stam/resilience shoulder enchant is one of the recommended options perhaps there should be a note about only needing 536 defense if you're using that.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby chinoquezada » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:52 am

Rhiannon wrote:From the OP: "Caution, never drop below 540 defense! Sometimes you may have to skip a low-cost stamina option to stay uncrittable." As far as I'm aware resilience still counts towards crit reduction in PvE as well as PvP, and as the stam/resilience shoulder enchant is one of the recommended options perhaps there should be a note about only needing 536 defense if you're using that.


Good clarification to put in imho. I, for one, had totally forgot about the fact I had that extra uncrittability from the 15resil.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:29 am

Rhiannon wrote:From the OP: "Caution, never drop below 540 defense! Sometimes you may have to skip a low-cost stamina option to stay uncrittable." As far as I'm aware resilience still counts towards crit reduction in PvE as well as PvP, and as the stam/resilience shoulder enchant is one of the recommended options perhaps there should be a note about only needing 536 defense if you're using that.

Indeed. However, defense also affects the heal provided by Argent Defender, though that degrades linearly (meaning that 536 defense yields a heal that is 536/540 as good as 540 defense). More importantly, I hesitate to say "you can use resilience to cover a defense gap" because someone out there would decide that he/she could then tank in PVP gear.

I'll work on better wording, but for now consider that a nuance perhaps too subtle for a general guide. Those of you who know what's best for yourself can rely on the PVP shoulder resilience if required.

Actually, if you rely on the resilience, the PVP shoulder enchant becomes one of the best (i.e. lowest cost) stamina stacking options. The ratio used in my table assumes the resilience is valueless; were it to have value then the "loss" when switching from the def/dodge enchant is reduced.

8)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Thanistor » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:08 am

Digren wrote:However, defense also affects the heal provided by Argent Defender, though that degrades linearly (meaning that 536 defense yields a heal that is 536/540 as good as 540 defense).



Isn't the heal based on the defense we get from gear, and not the base 400? So it woudl actually be 136/140 as good?
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:21 am

Thanistor wrote:
Digren wrote:However, defense also affects the heal provided by Argent Defender, though that degrades linearly (meaning that 536 defense yields a heal that is 536/540 as good as 540 defense).



Isn't the heal based on the defense we get from gear, and not the base 400? So it woudl actually be 136/140 as good?

Oops, yeah, you're right.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Thanistor » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:47 am

Cool. In any event, it was "close enough" for the real world , but I wanted to be sure myself, and for your excellent guide.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Martinii » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:18 pm

I just want to thank Digren and all the other posters. This has been an invaluable guide as I gear my way to the back end of ICC.

/cheer!
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Altais » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:59 am

Okay, I feel like I just need some clarification on gemming.

My gear is pretty much all 264's minus a few 251's and for a while, I was just matching Gem's to match the bonus for my Paladin. Then I read things like this...

"ToC Hard / Icecrown Citadel? / End Game. Match socket colors only when the bonus is +12 stamina."

So, I only have 2 items with a 12 STAM socket bonus and that's my chest and my helmet. It said to weigh the benefits of the bonus towards the non-blue sockets so in my chest, it has a RED, YELLOW, and BLUE socket making the stam bonus for the other 2 gems 6 STAM from what I read. Well, if an item only has 2 sockets (Say.. a red and blue) but has a +9 STAM bonus... would I not want to gem for that bonus being that it would equal a +9 STAM bonus to the red socket vs. +6 for the +12 STAM bonus?

Then I see this...

"Always match blue sockets, no matter how good or bad the bonus may be. The whole point is to stack stamina, right? Bonuses attached to blue sockets are freebies."

So this raises my question about items with 1 socket and say... a 6 STAM bonus. Should I just be sticking 30 STAM gems anyway? Or should I be going after the bonuses on single socket items that aren't blue?

Please help clarify!
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby inthedrops » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:08 am

Altais wrote:Then I see this...

"Always match blue sockets, no matter how good or bad the bonus may be. The whole point is to stack stamina, right? Bonuses attached to blue sockets are freebies."

Please help clarify!


The guide is referring to an item which has a single socket, which is blue. It's saying throw a stam gem in it and congratulate yourself on getting a free socket bonus (free as in, one you didn't have to sacrifice stamina stacking for).
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Altais » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:26 am

Well I got that... my question is what if the socket it red? Should I throw a 10 AGIL 15 STAM in there just to get the 21 STAM total? OR just do a 30 STAM gem..
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:21 am

Altais wrote:Well I got that... my question is what if the socket it red? Should I throw a 10 AGIL 15 STAM in there just to get the 21 STAM total? OR just do a 30 STAM gem..


Always depends on YOUR tanking situation.

Anyway, if the bonus is 12 stamina, I think most everyone here agrees that agi/stam gem is a no-brainer.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:55 am

Altais wrote:Well I got that... my question is what if the socket it red? Should I throw a 10 AGIL 15 STAM in there just to get the 21 STAM total? OR just do a 30 STAM gem..

There's not a definitive answer, so I can't give you one. Based on your gear level, you may or may not wish to match +6 stamina socket bonuses. Read the "Tank Levels" and "How to Stack Stamina" sections of the guide. Then, make your own decision or post in the Gear Check and Advice thread and someone else will help you.

Also, you earlier asked about a piece that had, say a +9 stamina socket bonus and three sockets - one red, one yellow, one blue. In that case, as in every case, you put a +30 stamina gem in the blue socket. Then, if you want the bonus, you have two non-blue sockets to match to get it. That basically means that each non-blue socket has an associated +4.5 stamina socket bonus. Do you want that bonus? Maybe. It's not very good, but a starting tank may want it because his or her overall avoidance and defense are low, so there is benefit to get dodge or agility plus defense plus some stamina. Again, you need to decide this based on your tank level, or you need to go post a link to your profile and ask for help if you can't figure it out on your own.

Good luck!
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Nidokuin » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:14 am

quick question.

You say that we should only be really matching 12+ sockets, but for example with the frost emblem would it be better to socket that (1 red, 1 blue, 1 empty after buckle) giving a +9 stam bonus as with the 10 agility and 15 stam gem so instead of getting 30 stam from that socket i would in effect be getting 24 stam and 10 agility giving me armor/crit.

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Barathorn » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:52 am

Nidokuin wrote:quick question.

You say that we should only be really matching 12+ sockets, but for example with the frost emblem would it be better to socket that (1 red, 1 blue, 1 empty after buckle) giving a +9 stam bonus as with the 10 agility and 15 stam gem so instead of getting 30 stam from that socket i would in effect be getting 24 stam and 10 agility giving me armor/crit.

Thanks


That is how I generally socket for a two socket +9 bonus if it is a blue/red socket. I dont tend to socket for the bonus when I have 3 sockets of different colours, blue/red/yellow for example. Plus I find that the pieces that have 3 sockets generally [chest + legs] at my progression level dictate which way I socket them anyway irrespective of the +12 socket bonus.

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Marblehead » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:29 am

I have a small correction to make to this amazing guide. It doesn't make any significant difference, it's more for the sake of precision.
There aren't any +9 avoidance socket bonuses in game. As far as tanking gear is concerned, socket bonuses (for items with 174 ilvl or higher) are as follows:

There are 2 categories of stats as socket bonuses in tank items.
Category 1: Stamina, Block Value
Category 2: Defense, Dodge, Parry, Block, Hit, Expertise

Any piece with 3 sockets or a head piece with one meta + one other socket: +12 of category 1 or +8 of category 2
Any piece with 2 sockets: +9 of category 1 or +6 of category 2
Any piece with 1 socket: +6 of category 1 or +4 of category 2


The only exception of the above I could find is the paladin T7 head with +6 expertise instead of +8.

Edit: To spare digren from having to run the calculations.
1.2 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is +8 avoidance rating (10+8)/15=1.27
1.3 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is +8 avoidance rating (10*1.1*0.83+8)/(30-15-20/11)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:16 am

Nidokuin wrote:quick question.

You say that we should only be really matching 12+ sockets, but for example with the frost emblem would it be better to socket that (1 red, 1 blue, 1 empty after buckle) giving a +9 stam bonus as with the 10 agility and 15 stam gem so instead of getting 30 stam from that socket i would in effect be getting 24 stam and 10 agility giving me armor/crit.

Thanks

If I understand your question correctly, you are talking about a belt with one red socket and one blue socket, where you can add a buckle for a third colorless socket. The socket bonus in this case is +9 stamina.

I call out what to do about colorless sockets:
Blue Gem Slot or Colorless Gem Slot

So both the blue and colorless sockets get pure stamina gems.

Then, the piece has a red socket and a "good" (for the purpose of this discussion) socket bonus.
Red Gem Slot (with a good socket bonus)

So put an agi/sta gem in the red socket, picking up the associated +9 sta bonus.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:48 am

Marblehead wrote:I have a small correction to make to this amazing guide. It doesn't make any significant difference, it's more for the sake of precision.
There aren't any +9 avoidance socket bonuses in game. As far as tanking gear is concerned, socket bonuses (for items with 174 ilvl or higher) are as follows:

Thanks! I updated the table. At the same time, I changed the armor/stamina ratio from the old 11-to-1 to the newer 10-to-1 in use by most end-game tankadins today. This shuffled a few things around.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:09 am

This is a deceptively deep guide that I am only now starting to fully appreciate (I just realised I made a mistake regemming for pure stamina with +6sta bonus before I switched my chest enchant from defence to health).

A minor point - I think the "Digren says..." recommendation on shield enchants needs updating now that stamina is ranked #1.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:32 am

econ21 wrote:A minor point - I think the "Digren says..." recommendation on shield enchants needs updating now that stamina is ranked #1.

Oops - thanks!
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Marblehead » Mon May 03, 2010 6:55 am

I noticed that some people get confused about gemming tri-color items. How about we add the following in the list?

0.97 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] and [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow and red socket on a tri-color item, if the socket bonus is +8 avoidance rating (10+10*1.1*0.83+8)/(60-30-20/10)
1.2 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] and [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow and red socket on a tri-color item, if the socket bonus is +12 stamina rating (10+10*1.1*0.83)/(60-30-12-20/10)=1.27

(I hope my calculations are correct :P )
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