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3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Get help with your character's gear

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Alixander » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:30 pm

Fiaraa wrote:Avoidance is still an afterthought, if that's what you mean.
Kind of. I'll get to that later.

Currently by the math a Shifting Dreadstone in a Red Socket with a 9 STA socket bonus has a ratio of 2.0750 which is just above the value a Level 4 tank should be gearing for. While technically it's better to go with the Shifting Dreadstone instead of a Solid Majestic Zircon, it's close enough so that you could go either way.

But now the numbers have changed and I'm not sure how. It could be the a Shifting Dreadstone is now firmly above the 2.0 ratio mark, at which point you would almost always want to pick that as your gem of choice. Or it could push it below, say down to a 1.8, at which point you would almost always want to replace it with a Solid Majestic Zircon at Level 4.

And saying that Avoidance is an afterthought is a gross exaggeration. It's generally much worse than EH, but there are definitely cases where the benefit of the additional stamina one would get is so tiny that giving up the avoidance one would get is not a valid trade-off. Like replacing a Shifting Dreadstone with a Solid Majestic Zircon in a red socket that has a +12 STA bonus gives such a miniscule benefit that it's never worth giving up.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:56 pm

Those numbers were all pre-buff stamina anyhow, so they don't need to be updated.

And in any event, the value of "2.0" was completely arbitrary. We just found that we tended to pick up red +9 stam bonuses, but nothing less, and figured on that as a good dividing line. I don't think we ever codified that anywhere though, Digren just observed that most of us were using that as a rule of thumb, and included it in his guide when he came up with his "tank level" structure.

In other words, even if the numbers did change, there's no reason that you'd change your gearing strategy if Shifting Dreadstone dropped to 1.95 from 2.05.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby econ21 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:35 am

One point to consider with this guide is how quickly tanks can go from stage 1 to stage 2 or 3. By just accumulating emblems, new level 80s can quickly get to the stage where Wow heroes, at least, thinks they should be concentrating on ToC and ICC. Yappo's guide outlines a plan that would take a month to exhaust emblem of triumph gear. When I first read Yappo's guide, as a casual new level 80 terrified of attempting random heroics, I thought he was assuming a ridiculously ambitious and fast route to gearing. However, about a month or so on, here I am with the gear he recommended.

The problem is that gearing up as a level 1 tank per the guide can leave you having sunk quite a lot of money in epic gems and some enchants that are sub-optimal for an aspiring level 3. My unbuffed hp are mediocre (34K) but my avoidance seems to be through the roof (due in part to the Onxyia trinket). However, I am not sure I can face re-gemming and re-enchanting for stamina at this point. One could say I was foolish to use epic gems and top tier enchants if I am concerned with cash, but an insecure new level 80 tank risking the derision of PUGs, is probably as keen to maximise their gear as they are poor.

For a cash constrained new level 80, there may be a case for thinking ahead a little. Items that are "keepers" - the white knight chest, for example - might best be epic gemmed and enchanted for pure stamina. Lower item level stuff that will be replaced might where you look for avoidance enchants and gem for slot bonuses (but perhaps not epic gem). One way of putting this would be to say one should gem and enchant the stuff in Eanin's guide (reputation and crafted ilevel 200 gear) for the defence minimum but to try to buff the gear in Yappo's guide (emblem of triumph and ToC 5 man) with effective health in mind. Early on, I suspect one can make gear choices that allow one to meet the defence minimum while still gemming and enchanting the triumph gear for effective health. Those choices might be strickly speaking sub-optimal given what is possible at the time, but cost effective when viewed as a stop-gap stage in the month or so of exhausting emblems of triumph
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby 99sitr » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:16 am

Say you are a JC (no longer have to meet Meta requirements) and you are above the def minimum of 540, is it still viable to run the hybrid gems of agi/stam def/stam or just put solid majestic zircon in those for EH? This would be for a tank tanking ToC, ToGC and ICC 10 mans.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:20 am

Depends on the socket bonus you are foregoing. Check the chart at the top of the topic and compare it to what stage of the tanking life-cycle you are in (probably 3-4). Its probably better to just go STA unless its a very, very good bonus unless you're low on +hit/+crit etc etc etc.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby lythac » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:21 am

99sitr wrote:Say you are a JC (no longer have to meet Meta requirements)


Has something changed in the last week that means JCs don't have to meet Meta requirements?

Oh do you mean you have already met them somewhere else?
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:25 am

lythac wrote:
99sitr wrote:Say you are a JC (no longer have to meet Meta requirements)


Has something changed in the last week that means JCs don't have to meet Meta requirements?

Oh do you mean you have already met them somewhere else?


It used to be that Dragonseyes were prismatics and counted against all gem types, making meta requires trivial for JCs. This has not been the case for some time, as I recall.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby lythac » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:27 am

Yes that is what I am getting at, he is saying that JCs don't have to worry about meeting Meta requirements, which is not the case.

So I am asking did he mean -

"Say you are a JC (have already met Meta requirements)"
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:29 am

lythac wrote:Yes that is what I am getting at, he is saying that JCs don't have to worry about meeting Meta requirements, which is not the case.

So I am asking did he mean -

"Say you are a JC (have already met Meta requirements)"


That is what I thought too. Perhaps it is a poor, forlorn message that was lost in time that we are only now seeing! :D
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:45 pm

Alixander wrote:Hey Theck/Meloree,

Could we get redone numbers for the Stamina/Avoidance ratios taking into account the change to Sacred Duty? Or do they not change the numbers at all?

It affects some of the numbers but not others.
  • Stamina/Defense ratios are completely unchanged. It's still Defense / Stamina = ratio.
  • Stamina/Agility ratios might need to change a bit, since Agility calculations take into account the stamina equivalent to Agility's armor. This one will take Theck; I'm not certain if armor just got better because of the Stamina nerf.
  • Health/Anything ratios have definitely changed. For example, the chest enchant option. To determine the Defense / Stamina ratio, the equivalent Stamina to +275 Health was calculated. Because of the Stamina nerf, the value of +Health enchants just increased.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby antiy4ho0 » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:51 am

So, should +18 stam to shield be the preferred enchant if you are already gemming/enchanting for EH? I saw posts on the first page talking about it and admittedly, I didn't look anywhere else in this topic.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:36 am

antiy4ho0 wrote:So, should +18 stam to shield be the preferred enchant if you are already gemming/enchanting for EH? I saw posts on the first page talking about it and admittedly, I didn't look anywhere else in this topic.

In a nutshell, yes.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:44 am

Digren wrote:It affects some of the numbers but not others.
  • Stamina/Defense ratios are completely unchanged. It's still Defense / Stamina = ratio.
  • Stamina/Agility ratios might need to change a bit, since Agility calculations take into account the stamina equivalent to Agility's armor. This one will take Theck; I'm not certain if armor just got better because of the Stamina nerf.
  • Health/Anything ratios have definitely changed. For example, the chest enchant option. To determine the Defense / Stamina ratio, the equivalent Stamina to +275 Health was calculated. Because of the Stamina nerf, the value of +Health enchants just increased.

This is basically correct. Agil values should be basically unchanged though. Consider the formula:
Code: Select all
dA = 12.1264*(K+A)/H * dS


Since the stam->HP value went down (from 12.2593 to 1.1264), one would expect that the ratio of armor:stam should also have gone down slightly (it takes slightly less armor to match the EH contribution of one stamina now, making armor stronger). However, our overall health H has gone down at the same time, weakening the EH contribution of armor. Since both values went down by nearly a factor of 1.04/1.08 (ignoring base health and +health enchants), they cancel and give us the same armor:stam ratio we had before (I think we used 11?).

Since agil still gives us 22 armor, and 22 armor is still worth 2 stam with this ratio, the Agility values shouldn't change.

Note that the choice of 11 is somewhat arbitrary anyhow - we could have used 10, 11, 12, or anything in between depending on what we thought was a representative A and H. It will vary with gear choices as well. So the fact that H doesn't go down by exactly 1.04/1.08 isn't that critical, since we're rounding off well above that level of detail. So take these numbers with a grain of salt - the real point is that picking up a stam bonus with an agility gem is going to be a slightly better trade than doing so with a dodge gem (or defense in a yellow slot).

Also, since we're using 11, we probably shouldn't keep 4 decimal places in the ratios. Maybe 2 decimal places at most, if we pretend we meant exactly 11.0 armor per stam.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:08 pm

theckhd wrote:1) The 18 Stamina Shield enchant isn't listed in the Enchant section, despite it being right around the threshold for level 3 tanks and well below the threshold for level 4 tanks.


Added.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 pm

bentglasstube wrote:
Digren wrote:1.0092 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Superior Health]


Not sure if anyone has brought this up (did a quick scan and didn't see it, but I think you mean to suggest Enchant Chest - Super Health rather than Enchant Chest - Superior Health. I certainly hope most tankadins would be able to figure that out, but best to be clear.


Fixed, thanks!
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