3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:04 pm

Digren wrote:Assume the 6% and 8% should be multiplied and not added (you know better than me on this), the correct result would be 1.0074. If they should be added, then multiplied with the kings bonus, the correct result would be the 1.0032 you just calculated.


No, they're definitely multiplicative. I should have noticed that when Meloree posted 1.14 in the first place - that's the problem with trying to make quick posts between doing actual work, I suppose.

Then again, I should also have known better than rounding something to 3 significant figures and then giving a result with 4 significant figures of accuracy in the first place.


So the proper conversion should be
275/10/1.1/1.06/1.08 = 21.8379 (health->stam)

which gives the 1.0074 ratio.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby TheBaldGuy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:46 pm

theckhd wrote:It's the ratio of the loss of avoidance over the gain in stamina. It's probably best explained by example.

Digren wrote:0.9333 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating


Pretend you have an item with a yellow socket that has a 4 dodge rating bonus. Here's what you have in each scenario:

Zircon: 30 stam, 0 avoidance
Eye of Zul, + 4 dodge from socket bonus: 15 Stam, 14 avoidance.

Diff: -15 stam, +14 avoidance

Ratio: 14/15 = 0.9333

In other words, to go from the gem that matches the socket bonus to a blue 30 stam gem, you lose 14 avoidance and gain 15 stamina, for a ratio of 14/15=0.933. The higher this ratio, the more "costly" it is to switch to stamina - you lose more avoidance per point of stamina gained.



Perfect, that is precisely what I needed. I thought I'd found it on Page 5 but my numbers didn't make sense (and neither did the formula I derived), so I asked. I'm kind of in between levels 3 and 4 at the moment, toes dipped in both pools if you will, so I'm taking a deeper look at improving what I've got and which upgrades make the most sense for me now that I'm back in a raiding guild that is actually raiding. It might help to put the formula in the main post when the opportunity is there.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby TheBaldGuy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:13 pm

Meloree wrote:
TheBaldGuy wrote:Obviously I'm missing it somewhere but how do I calculate that ratio to determine when I should swap an enhancement to stam?


On the offchance that Theck answered a different question than I think you meant to ask: In some ways, choosing the ratio you want to aim for is personal choice. Progression tanks on this board generally shoot for somewhere in the range of 1.4 to 2.0 as their ratio of choice. The ratios we calculated (okay, mostly Theck, I'm not trying to steal credit) primarily codified the optimal order for replacement.

A ratio of 1.4 or so is typically using optimal EH enchants, but picking up all +9 stamina bonuses. A ratio of 2.0 or so, my personal ballpark, will skip 9stam bonuses. There actually isn't a hell of a lot of difference between the two numbers. Things get more interesting as you dip down into the 1.1 ratio area (avoidance junkies), because quite a lot of enchants and gem choices are clustered around that tradeoff value.


Hmmm that is a different question than what I asked but it is worth exploring, or at least verifying I understand it. Sometimes (often) I overthink things, so the post may explain it and I may not see it for the pixels.

If I understand you correctly, if you favor avoidance you want to enhance for a lower number, and if you favor EH a higher number? I'll use one of the pieces I am looking at changing as an example. I have boots with a yellow slot for +6 stam. Currently I have 10str/10def because at the time I needed the defense and well just wanted the strength. ;)

So, if I replaced that with say a 10def/15 this ratio works out to .9 (or does defense have a different calculation? I'll assume no for discussion). Does that mean if I prefer avoidance I am better off with the hybrid, but better off w/the 30stam if I prefer stamina? Assume I maintain uncrittable in either case.

Also, the way it reads to me, the further toward end-game I am, the more I *should* lean toward stam in general. Did I get that right? And the "ratio of choice" means that you prefer enhancements that provide a ratio in that neighborhood, correct? Further, if say I decided to go for a 1.4 ratio, I would start with my lowest ratio enhancements and start replacing them with ones close to 1.4. If I decided to go the other direction and go for 1.1 I'd do the opposite by replacing those with a high number with those close to 1.1, correct?

Just making sure I'm not overthinking it. :D
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:35 pm

TheBaldGuy wrote:I'll use one of the pieces I am looking at changing as an example. I have boots with a yellow slot for +6 stam. Currently I have 10str/10def because at the time I needed the defense and well just wanted the strength. ;)

So, if I replaced that with say a 10def/15 this ratio works out to .9 (or does defense have a different calculation? I'll assume no for discussion). Does that mean if I prefer avoidance I am better off with the hybrid, but better off w/the 30stam if I prefer stamina? Assume I maintain uncrittable in either case.


If your socket currently contains a 10str/10def gem, and you replace that with a 10def/15sta gem, you have not done anything related to the stamina conversion table.

1. You are still getting the socket bonus, so it is irrelevant.
2. You are replacing strength, a valueless stat (more or less)* with stamina.

Thus, were a ratio calculated, it would be closer to 0.

* Strength provides some benefit from block, but that's generally not considered worthy of consideration.

Also, the way it reads to me, the further toward end-game I am, the more I *should* lean toward stam in general. Did I get that right?

Yup, exactly.

And the "ratio of choice" means that you prefer enhancements that provide a ratio in that neighborhood, correct?


It means you want to convert everything with a lower ratio to stamina. That means you don't need the defense or avoidance from the sockets and enchants with a lower ratio, and would rather have stamina.

Further, if say I decided to go for a 1.4 ratio, I would start with my lowest ratio enhancements and start replacing them with ones close to 1.4. If I decided to go the other direction and go for 1.1 I'd do the opposite by replacing those with a high number with those close to 1.1, correct?

This is in the original post:
Digren wrote:
    Image To use the above tables,
    • Look through your gear, find the place where you can make a swap with the smallest number.
    • Verify that you'll stay above the defense minimum, then make the change.
    • Keep going until you reach the defense minimum, a health you're happy with, or an avoidance percentage you wish to stay above.
    • Revisit the table each time you get a new piece of gear, to see if your new stats let you make more changes.


I know it's hard to read; formatting is shit since the [list] tag isn't properly causing an indent.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby TheBaldGuy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:21 pm

Digren wrote:
TheBaldGuy wrote:I'll use one of the pieces I am looking at changing as an example. I have boots with a yellow slot for +6 stam. Currently I have 10str/10def because at the time I needed the defense and well just wanted the strength. ;)

So, if I replaced that with say a 10def/15 this ratio works out to .9 (or does defense have a different calculation? I'll assume no for discussion). Does that mean if I prefer avoidance I am better off with the hybrid, but better off w/the 30stam if I prefer stamina? Assume I maintain uncrittable in either case.


If your socket currently contains a 10str/10def gem, and you replace that with a 10def/15sta gem, you have not done anything related to the stamina conversion table.

1. You are still getting the socket bonus, so it is irrelevant.
2. You are replacing strength, a valueless stat (more or less)* with stamina.

Thus, were a ratio calculated, it would be closer to 0.

* Strength provides some benefit from block, but that's generally not considered worthy of consideration.


I know it's hard to read; formatting is shit since the [list] tag isn't properly causing an indent.


Ah so I need to reframe the test then. I should instead be determining if I am better off with a stam as replacement or with the hybrid, by assuming for calculation that I had the hybrid in and calculating it that way. Looking at it that way, its -9 stam for +10 defense for the .9 ratio, meaning the +30 stam is a better enhancement (assuming I stay above 540). Did I get it right that time?
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:10 pm

TheBaldGuy wrote:Ah so I need to reframe the test then. I should instead be determining if I am better off with a stam as replacement or with the hybrid, by assuming for calculation that I had the hybrid in and calculating it that way. Looking at it that way, its -9 stam for +10 defense for the .9 ratio, meaning the +30 stam is a better enhancement (assuming I stay above 540). Did I get it right that time?


Unless we've gone and redefined something while I wasn't paying attention, the ratios have typically been given in terms of "stamina value". In other words, stamina is always the denominator. Your ratio there should be 10/9 for switching from 10def/15stam gem with a 6 stam socket bonus to a 30 stam gem, or 1.11.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby TheBaldGuy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:12 pm

Meloree wrote:
TheBaldGuy wrote:Ah so I need to reframe the test then. I should instead be determining if I am better off with a stam as replacement or with the hybrid, by assuming for calculation that I had the hybrid in and calculating it that way. Looking at it that way, its -9 stam for +10 defense for the .9 ratio, meaning the +30 stam is a better enhancement (assuming I stay above 540). Did I get it right that time?


Unless we've gone and redefined something while I wasn't paying attention, the ratios have typically been given in terms of "stamina value". In other words, stamina is always the denominator. Your ratio there should be 10/9 for switching from 10def/15stam gem with a 6 stam socket bonus to a 30 stam gem, or 1.11.



Ah, thanks.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Anubisknight » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:24 am

I'm not sure if this has been asked before. If it has been, I apologise.

1.1111 : Replace [Enchant Shield - Defense] with [Enchant Shield - Major Stamina]
Image A level four tank may choose to gem and enchant for stamina or armor at ratios up to 2.0, as ratios above that yield little benefit.




Shield Enchant


Following the reasoning in the first quote, shouldn't the stamina enchant be included in the Shield Enchants' list?
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:35 am

Anubisknight wrote:I'm not sure if this has been asked before. If it has been, I apologise.

1.1111 : Replace [Enchant Shield - Defense] with [Enchant Shield - Major Stamina]
Image A level four tank may choose to gem and enchant for stamina or armor at ratios up to 2.0, as ratios above that yield little benefit.




Shield Enchant


Following the reasoning in the first quote, shouldn't the stamina enchant be included in the Shield Enchants' list?

I haven't finished updating the enchant list to correspond with my 3.3 recommendations. I was working on it when the site broke, and I'm not touching anything until indentation is fixed.

It's on my list. =p Basically if the little images are missing from an enchant slot, it's still giving my 3.2 recommendation.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Anubisknight » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:32 am

Gotcha! Thanks :)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby krick » Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:49 pm

Digren wrote:
1.0092 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Superior Health]


I think you mean [Enchant Chest - Super Health]
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:17 am

krick wrote:
Digren wrote:
1.0092 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Superior Health]


I think you mean [Enchant Chest - Super Health]

Yeah, it's mentioned on the previous page. Thanks. I'll fix it when site formatting is no longer broken.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:07 pm

Just noticed i used 0.84 in all of the agility calculations where I should have used 0.83. Normally it wouldn't make a difference, but we've been calculating these things out to four decimal places, so...

I'll go back and fix them when I get some time, probably tomorrow morning.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Aedh » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:57 pm

theckhd wrote:Just noticed i used 0.84 in all of the agility calculations where I should have used 0.83. Normally it wouldn't make a difference, but we've been calculating these things out to four decimal places, so...

I'll go back and fix them when I get some time, probably tomorrow morning.


now is that 0.83 or 0.8300?
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:34 am

Aedh wrote:
theckhd wrote:Just noticed i used 0.84 in all of the agility calculations where I should have used 0.83. Normally it wouldn't make a difference, but we've been calculating these things out to four decimal places, so...

I'll go back and fix them when I get some time, probably tomorrow morning.


now is that 0.83 or 0.8300?

It's technically 45.25018692/(59.88023952/1.1)=0.831245934.

(dodge rating for 1% dodge) / (agil for 1% dodge)



Also I've updated the numbers in my post, they should all be correct now (using all 9 decimal places of accuracy in the conversion, even).
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:12 pm

This is a good discussion of the reasons to not gem for +hit. I'll link to it in the guide when I'm willing to make edits.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Aedh » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:39 am

theckhd wrote:
Aedh wrote:
theckhd wrote:Just noticed i used 0.84 in all of the agility calculations where I should have used 0.83. Normally it wouldn't make a difference, but we've been calculating these things out to four decimal places, so...

I'll go back and fix them when I get some time, probably tomorrow morning.


now is that 0.83 or 0.8300?

It's technically 45.25018692/(59.88023952/1.1)=0.831245934.

(dodge rating for 1% dodge) / (agil for 1% dodge)



Also I've updated the numbers in my post, they should all be correct now (using all 9 decimal places of accuracy in the conversion, even).


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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby ekim952522000 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:27 pm

Hi all I am new here and hope this is not a lame first post I have tried to read every sticky.

In regards to the shield enchant. Should I still use [Enchant Shield - Defense] over [Titanium Plating] even if I am already over 540 Defense. this would be for my main tank EH set.



Shield Enchant
[Enchant Shield - Defense] : +20 Defense Rating : Crafted (Enchanting)
[Titanium Plating] : +81 Block Value : Crafted (Blacksmithing)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Aedh » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:07 am

neither.
+18 stam.
The lists aren't fully updated in places.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby lythac » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:27 am

Depends, on what your cloak and chest are enchanted with. If they have def enchants on them, you should swap them first. Still above 540? If so then get +18sta.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Barathorn » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:39 am

Aedh wrote:neither.
+18 stam.
The lists aren't fully updated in places.


But ONLY consider +18 stamina if you first meet the requirements of the other options listed, for example you are at a stage where defence no longer matters, already have +40 stam to bracers, +225 armor to cloak, +275 health to chest. Then and only then should you consider the +18 stam to shield as it is a weak enchant against the defence ratio.

For most people starting ICC def isn't an issue, if however you are not yet raiding in ICC then you may find that you get into problematic situations by gearing towards an ideal that you simply do not need to be gearing towards at your current gear level/progression.

I cannot stress how important it is to be aware of what gear level you are at [as per Digren's tankadin gearing stages guide] and what your individual needs are!

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Aedh » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:45 am

He did say he was over 540.
But you are right. Cloak and chest are the best places to cut def before the shield.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby ekim952522000 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:36 am

I am tanking ICC now, this will be my second week doing it. So I am trying to dial in my enchants/gems this thread was really helpful.

Here is my armory link.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Repairbill

I will replace the titanium plating with the +18 stamina. Is there anything else on the guide that is not updated? I have gemmed/enchanted all my gear based on the guide.

Thank you all for the help, this is a great forum I have been amazed at the amount of information already in the Stickys/guides. I have been browsing for weeks this was the first thing that was not clearly already answered that made it so I needed to register. :D
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:37 am

Aedh wrote:He did say he was over 540.
But you are right. Cloak and chest are the best places to cut def before the shield.


And leaving the not-as-efficient shield enchant in place gives some fungibility for gearing +DEF
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:52 pm

ekim952522000 wrote:Is there anything else on the guide that is not updated?

I'm really sorry about that. I'll work on it this weekend.

I was updating the guide for 3.3 when the last site redesign broke indentation. Un-ordered lists no longer indent:
Code: Select all
[list=1][*]Numbered list item
[*]Numbered list item[/list]
[list][*]Bulleted list item
[*]Bulleted list item[/list]
[list]Indented non-bulleted list item
Indented non-bulleted list item[/list]

  1. Numbered list item
  2. Numbered list item
  • Bulleted list item
  • Bulleted list item
    Indented non-bulleted list item
    Indented non-bulleted list item

With absolutely no way to indent (the [indent] BBCode is disabled) this totally screws up my guide formatting. I was hoping it would be a quick fix, and I could get back to work, but I guess it's a harder fix to make.

This weekend, I'm going to create a 50 pixel by one pixel transparent image, and use it at the start of lines to create indentation. It's the only thing I can think of to restore organization. Then, I'll finish my updates.
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