3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:21 am

As a lifetime engineer I feel I've earned the right to enjoy my profession, even if that enjoyment is derived from denigrating it in text.

I know formatting is difficult to follow right now. Looks like the new design ignores un-numbered lists rather than indenting them like the previous design would do. Given that the indent BBCode is also off, I don't have a better method to generate readable indentations for the moment, so the formatting problems will have to ride for a while.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Alixander » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:19 pm

I think I'm gonna go Engineering. Yes, Meloree, I realize it's less than ideal, and I've been wrestling with my thoughts as of late over what to do with my professions. I'm currently a Scribe/Alchemist. I have zero interest in dropping Alchemy as it is both a close runner to professions such as BS or LW as far as EH return is (along with cutting out a lot of the price of supplying yourself with flasks/elixirs/potions), plus I just... like it. I like making my own potions and such. I like having the Endless Mana Potion for doing 5-mans (at this point, I can't imagine trying to do a heroic that I overgear without it).

And this is part of the reason I want to become an Engineer. It looks... fun! One thing that helps is that I'll get better overall profession bonus (if I was a JC or an Enchanter I would be much less willing to do this), and having a profession I can really enjoy would mean more to me than a little bit of extra health.

======

Aside: Not quite sure where to put this, but I figure this place is as good as any... The emphasis on stamina as the go-to stat for tanks could potentially come back to bite us (and by "us" I mean all tanks) in the ass.

Health is a nice easy visible statistic which anyone can see by inviting a tank and looking at their health. Problem is, in Cataclysm, GC has stated they intend to dramatically increase health pools, but not dramatically increase healing done. On top of this, as we already know, avoidance will be dropping sharply.

Obviously, this is just theory until we see it in action, but even with more health, a tank will be taking more damage just because we will lose 20+% of our avoidance. I can very easily imagine a scenario (especially depending on how they change mana regeneration) that suddenly healers don't have limitless mana pools.

The current high value of Stamina is partially based on the theory that our healers will never run out of mana and can keep us always at full health. If this scenario or one similar to it comes to pass, Avoidance and Armor could easily catch up in value to Stamina (or at least greatly diminish the difference) for the balance between best and worst stats.

Now, it's not our fault that Stamina is such a good stat. We're just reacting to the situation given, but I'd hate for someone who just idiotically stacks Stamina in Cataclysm to get a raid spot because they have over 100k Health while a good tank who has "only" 95k but better understands what makes good stats and bad and has an ideal mix is sidelined. =/
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:40 pm

When Cataclysm comes out, there'll be a whole new round of Theorycraft about it's mechanics. There fully exists the possibility that throughput damage will be a meaningful statistic, something to worry about minimizing in progression. If so, we'll gear accordingly.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Alixander » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:18 pm

Meloree wrote:If so, we'll gear accordingly.
I'm sure. I just wanted to rant a bit (not expecting anyone to change anything now) about the potential of dumb (pickup) raid leaders who only look at health after it being the king-shit muckity-muck for most of WotLK.

EDIT: Sorry for taking a good thread off-topic. u.u;
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 am

Alixander wrote:And this is part of the reason I want to become an Engineer. It looks... fun!


Too many lose sight of this part. If it is fun (and doesn't piss anyone else off) then doooo eeeet!
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby bentglasstube » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:31 pm

Digren wrote:1.0092 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Superior Health]


Not sure if anyone has brought this up (did a quick scan and didn't see it, but I think you mean to suggest Enchant Chest - Super Health rather than Enchant Chest - Superior Health. I certainly hope most tankadins would be able to figure that out, but best to be clear.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby TheBaldGuy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:38 am

Obviously I'm missing it somewhere but how do I calculate that ratio to determine when I should swap an enhancement to stam?
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:24 am

TheBaldGuy wrote:Obviously I'm missing it somewhere but how do I calculate that ratio to determine when I should swap an enhancement to stam?

It's the ratio of the loss of avoidance over the gain in stamina. It's probably best explained by example.

Digren wrote:0.9333 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating


Pretend you have an item with a yellow socket that has a 4 dodge rating bonus. Here's what you have in each scenario:

Zircon: 30 stam, 0 avoidance
Eye of Zul, + 4 dodge from socket bonus: 15 Stam, 14 avoidance.

Diff: -15 stam, +14 avoidance

Ratio: 14/15 = 0.9333

In other words, to go from the gem that matches the socket bonus to a blue 30 stam gem, you lose 14 avoidance and gain 15 stamina, for a ratio of 14/15=0.933. The higher this ratio, the more "costly" it is to switch to stamina - you lose more avoidance per point of stamina gained.

Another example, this time to highlight an error with the agility calculations:
Digren wrote:8.3000 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of stamina


Zircon: 30 Stam
Dreadstone, +12 stam: 10 Agi, 27 stam.

The 10 agility gives us 20 armor, which is 1.8182 stam of physical EH. Each point of Agility is equivalent to about 0.84 points of dodge rating. However, the 10 agility is actually 11 after kings, so we get 11*0.84=9.24 points of avoidance rating from that 10 agility.

Note that we don't use kings for the stamina equivalent, since we didn't do it for the stamina itself (otherwise we'd have to treat the zircon as 33 stam and the dreadstone as 29.7 stam). This is the error I'm pointing out with the original calculations.

So we have a net total of 9.24 avoidance rating, and 27 stam, plus 1.8182 stam of armor.

Diff: -9.24 avoidance, +(30-27-1.8182)=1.1818 stam
Ratio: 7.8186
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:52 am

Re-running the numbers in the original post, I get the following (bolded text/numbers mean I've made a correction, Armor->Stam conversion is 1/11, Agil->stam conversion is 2/11 pre-kings):

0.6667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is valueless (i.e. not a tanking stat, or block rating)
0.7822 : Replace [Enchant Cloak - Titanweave] with [Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor] (but switching instead to the agility enchant may be better; see the enchant section for details)
=16/(225/11)

0.9091 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of stamina
0.9333 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating
0.8800 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Super Health]
=22/(275/10/1.1)

1.0667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 6 points of avoidance rating
1.1111 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 6 points of stamina
1.1111 : Replace [Enchant Shield - Defense] with [Enchant Shield - Major Stamina]
1.1667 : Replace [Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle] with [Greater Inscription of the Gladiator]
1.2667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 9 points of avoidance rating

1.4667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of avoidance - do these exist on gear?

1.6667 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 9 points of stamina
2.5000 : Replace [Master's Inscription of the Pinnacle] with [Greater Inscription of the Gladiator]
2.5000 : Replace [Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector] with [Mind Amplification Dish]
3.3333 : Replace [Enduring Eye of Zul] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a yellow socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of stamina

And the agility options, all of which have changed. It's been determined that Toughness and the armor meta don't affect bonus armor on items, enchanted armor, or armor gained from enchanted agility, so we can ignore both toughness and the meta.

0.2381 : Replace [Enchant Gloves - Major Agility] with [Reticulated Armor Webbing]
=(20*1.1*0.831245934)/((885-40)/11)

0.6937 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is valueless (i.e. not a tanking stat, or block rating)
=(10*1.1*0.831245934) / (30-15-20/11)

0.9958 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of stamina
=(10*1.1*0.831245934)/(30-15-4-20/11)

0.9971 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating
=(10*1.1*0.831245934+4)/(30-15-20/11)

1.1488 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 6 points of avoidance rating
=(10*1.1*0.831245934+6) / (30-15-20/11)

1.2732 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 6 points of stamina
=(10*1.1*0.831245934) / (30-15-6-20/11)

1.1301 : Replace [Enchant Gloves - Major Agility] with [Heavy Borean Armor Kit]
=(20*1.1*0.831245934)/(18-20/11)

1.2225 : Replace [Enchant Cloak - Major Agility] with [Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor]
=22*1.1*0.831245934/((225-22*2)/11)

1.3764 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 9 points of avoidance rating
=(10*1.1*0.831245934+9) / (30-15-20/11)

1.2924 : Replace [Flexweave Underlay] with [Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor]
=23*1.1*0.831245934/((225-23*2)/11)

2.1865 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 9 points of stamina
=(10*1.1*0.831245934) / (30-15-9-20/11)

7.7370 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of stamina
=(10*1.1*0.831245934) / (30-15-12-20/11)


1.6040 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 12 points of avoidance - again, not sure if this actually exists, but it was missing
=(10*1.1*0.831245934+12) / (30-15-20/11)
Last edited by theckhd on Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:33 am

Thanks for the updates. I'm not making any edits to my guide while indentation is broken; I'll incorporate them once that's fixed.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:53 am

theckhd wrote:0.8800 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Super Health]
=22/(275/10/1.1)


I think the original value was correct here, Theck. We've always been using "gem value" stamina, for simplicity, or stamina before any modifiers. So that 275 needs to be reduced by 10% (kings/sanc), and 14% (prot pally stamina scaling), leading to the old ratio.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:00 pm

TheBaldGuy wrote:Obviously I'm missing it somewhere but how do I calculate that ratio to determine when I should swap an enhancement to stam?


On the offchance that Theck answered a different question than I think you meant to ask: In some ways, choosing the ratio you want to aim for is personal choice. Progression tanks on this board generally shoot for somewhere in the range of 1.4 to 2.0 as their ratio of choice. The ratios we calculated (okay, mostly Theck, I'm not trying to steal credit) primarily codified the optimal order for replacement.

A ratio of 1.4 or so is typically using optimal EH enchants, but picking up all +9 stamina bonuses. A ratio of 2.0 or so, my personal ballpark, will skip 9stam bonuses. There actually isn't a hell of a lot of difference between the two numbers. Things get more interesting as you dip down into the 1.1 ratio area (avoidance junkies), because quite a lot of enchants and gem choices are clustered around that tradeoff value.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:09 pm

Meloree wrote:
theckhd wrote:0.8800 : Replace [Enchant Chest - Greater Defense] with [Enchant Chest - Super Health]
=22/(275/10/1.1)


I think the original value was correct here, Theck. We've always been using "gem value" stamina, for simplicity, or stamina before any modifiers. So that 275 needs to be reduced by 10% (kings/sanc), and 14% (prot pally stamina scaling), leading to the old ratio.

Ah, you're right. I forgot to remove our stamina scaling when converting to gem value.

So it should be 22/(275/10/1.1/1.14) = 1.0032. That still comes out different from the old ratio of 1.0092. What am I missing?

275/10/1.1/1.14 works out to about 22 stamina (21.9298), which seems reasonable given that the chest enchant is 22 defense rating.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:18 pm

theckhd wrote:Ah, you're right. I forgot to remove our stamina scaling when converting to gem value.

So it should be 22/(275/10/1.1/1.14) = 1.0032. That still comes out different from the old ratio of 1.0092. What am I missing?

275/10/1.1/1.14 works out to about 22 stamina (21.9298), which seems reasonable given that the chest enchant is 22 defense rating.


Rounding error. 1.08*1.06 doesn't actually equal 1.14... but it's close enough. We're talking about being 0.006 off in the ratios.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:21 pm

theckhd wrote:Ah, you're right. I forgot to remove our stamina scaling when converting to gem value.

So it should be 22/(275/10/1.1/1.14) = 1.0032. That still comes out different from the old ratio of 1.0092. What am I missing?

275/10/1.1/1.14 works out to about 22 stamina (21.9298), which seems reasonable given that the chest enchant is 22 defense rating.


Well in your original post you wrote:
Theck wrote:275 health is equivalent to 275/(1.1*1.08*1.6*10)=21.8 stam


I think that was supposed to be 1.08*1.06*1.1, which is close to but not equal to the 1.14*1.1 you're using now.

Actually, that doesn't yield the same ratio either. In your original calculation, you rounded 21.8378756 to get 21.8, then used the rounded value in your subsequent calculation. I apparently reused your value without redoing the math.

Assume the 6% and 8% should be multiplied and not added (you know better than me on this), the correct result would be 1.0074. If they should be added, then multiplied with the kings bonus, the correct result would be the 1.0032 you just calculated.

The only reason it matters would be if someone decided to swap their chest too soon or too late relative to a few gems:
1.0063 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of stamina
1.0044 : Replace [Shifting Dreadstone] with [Solid Majestic Zircon] in a red socket, if the socket bonus is 4 points of avoidance rating

At 1.0074, all of the above should be swapped first. (Sure, still not a big deal, but some folks are sticklers for accuracy.)
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