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3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:13 pm

sabedoriaclark wrote:Clearest and best version of your guide yet Digren. Way to go.

Of course, by your guidelines I've made several suboptimal choices I'm comfortable with. I like Armsmen on gloves because I like having a huge lead on threat. It gives me breathing room if I need to switch targets to an add or something mid fight. I come back and the boss is still firmly attached to my backside. Call it a security blanket, but it works for me.

I also think the armor enchant on the cloak - particularly the new Frost Badge cloak is ideal because you're enchanting to the strength of that item. My cloak now gives me almost 1k armor, which is juicy.


Thanks! I use Accuracy on my weapon even though I'm over the hit cap without it (in most gear sets) merely because I like the glow color better. =p

When I finally get the enchant section updated for 3.3, I plan to mark the armor enchant as best for effective health. When I reach a 1.4 ratio myself, I'll trade off my flexweave for armor as well.

Drowden wrote:Great guide, thanks for making and updating it.
Digren wrote:Hit Rating

Hit rating provides two benefits to a paladin tank:
  1. Increase to threat, though not as good as from stamina in the long term.

I think you mean strength instead of stamina, since Touched By The Light was changed in 3.3. Also, this could be noted in the Strength section.

Doh, I totally meant strength, not just because of Touched by the Light, but because of the analysis that Theck did showing strength to be better than hit for most everyone at that time.

Actually, looking at it, that appears to be no longer true. Here's the relevant post:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... start=1239

I'll update my text and provide a link. Thanks!

Alixander wrote:This is aimed primarily at Theck and Meloree, but it's related to this post, so I figured I'd put it here.

We have Opportunity Cost numbers for most changes from one thing to another, the major exception is the Inscription Shoulders compared to the "PvP STA shoulder enchant".

Looking at Theck's post here, the simplistic way to do it is to compare the combined total of the Dodge Rating and Defense Rating (35 on the SoH Exalted enchant, and therefore 75 on the Scribe's) and divide it the Stamina total (30 in this case).

So assuming I'm understanding the methedology correctly, it should be 75 / 30 = 2.5 (which puts it well above the replacement point for even a Level 4 tank, but I figure it's worth mentioning).

Am I understanding and executing the process correctly?


I recalculated all of the numbers I'm presenting, though they match Theck and Meloree's numbers for the items they had covered. I just forgot about the Inscription enchant. =p

Dodge and defense rating are pretty equivalent for avoidance, so the tables (actually the whole process) just lump them together as "avoidance". Then yeah, it's just avoidance sacrificed divided by stamina gained, or 75/30 = 2.5. Now that does assume the tank gets no benefit from the PVP resilience, but that's consistent with the math for the Pinnacle to Gladiator transition. A tank that was somehow under the defense minimum after giving up their existing shoulder enchant, but then becomes uncrittable through the use of the PVP enchant, actually gains more benefit from the PVP enchant and thus it is relatively more valuable.

The agility replacement math is much more complicated, since it breaks agility down into avoidance and armor components, then calculates the stamina equivalent to that armor before deriving the ratio. As I note somewhere, I'm using 12.3 armor per stamina, which is an old number that I need to fix.

I've added the line to my table. Thanks!
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Arizair » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:12 am

Macktruck wrote:As far as the 12 stam bonuses go, I know that helms with +12 stam is a no brainer, what about gear with 3 gem sockets?

Until I get the exalted Ashen Verdict ring, I'm still not comfortable with my hit rating (163), so I gemmed a shifting, vivid, and solid in my http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49964 as well as http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47415

On the whole, it's 10 hit and 10 agility vs 18 stam on each piece, so a net of 20 agi and 20 hit vs 36 stam.

With my current gemming and enchanting, I'm at 45149 unbuffed hp without a 258/264 stam trinket, and at this point I personally believe that just stacking stam turns me more into a mana sponge. With heroic mode or in the following wings, things may change.

Thoughs? Ideas?


yeah, i gem the same way. though i've gone to def/stam since i have crafted items that have 0 def rating on them. i take far less damage than the other pally that gems straight stam, and the difference in actual hp from the gems is actually quite small.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Thu Dec 31, 2009 9:14 am

Hmm. With the growing overkill of +DEF on my gear, I am starting to consider putting the Mind Control tinker on my hat. Yes, I loose +20 DEF and gain +8 STA - and mind control I can use to toss annoying people out of Naxx, off of Ulduar, or off of Ice Crown. :D
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:02 pm

Alixander wrote:This is aimed primarily at Theck and Meloree, but it's related to this post, so I figured I'd put it here.

We have Opportunity Cost numbers for most changes from one thing to another, the major exception is the Inscription Shoulders compared to the "PvP STA shoulder enchant".

So assuming I'm understanding the methedology correctly, it should be 75 / 30 = 2.5 (which puts it well above the replacement point for even a Level 4 tank, but I figure it's worth mentioning).

Am I understanding and executing the process correctly?


Yes, that's exactly right. If one of your professions is inscription, the tradeoff value for the gladiator shoulder enchant is extremely pricey.

However, if you look at it another way, Inscription nets you 40 avoidance. Blacksmithing nets you 60 stamina, as does Leatherworking and Enchanting. Jewelcrafting gets you 63 stamina. So, the opportunity cost for being an Inscriptionist against another profession is pretty high, you're giving up stamina for avoidance at a ratio of 0.66 - generally a pretty bad trade, even by avoidance-advocate standards. Whether or not you think it's worth changing is up to you and your guild.

EDIT: Given my predilection for costing everything in terms of Stamina - Inscription has a value, as a profession, of <=36 stamina (1.11 ratio or higher), as I think ToC and ICC have pretty much pushed even the die-hard avoidance advocates at least that far up the scale. Therefore, if we're talking in terms of profession perks, Inscription ranks just above herbalism and skinning, and below everything else, as a tanking profession.

EDIT2: I evidently can't get a complete cohesive thought out today. The upshot is that your net loss in health for using Inscription against another profession is 90 stamina, for a gain of 75 avoidance rating, in that you'ld be going from Gladiator enchant and a 60 stam profession (optimal setup) to Inscription with the Scribe enchant. That trade of profession+enchant has a ratio of 0.83, overall.
Last edited by Meloree on Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:09 pm

Meloree wrote:
Yes, that's exactly right. If one of your professions is inscription, the tradeoff value for the gladiator shoulder enchant is extremely pricey.

However, if you look at it another way, Inscription nets you 40 avoidance. Blacksmithing nets you 60 stamina, as does Leatherworking and Enchanting. Jewelcrafting gets you 63 stamina. So, the opportunity cost for being an Inscriptionist against another profession is pretty high, you're giving up stamina for avoidance at a ratio of 0.66 - generally a pretty bad trade, even by avoidance-advocate standards. Whether or not you think it's worth changing is up to you and your guild.

EDIT: Given my predilection for costing everything in terms of Stamina - Inscription has a value, as a profession, of <=36 stamina (1.11 ratio or higher), as I think ToC and ICC have pretty much pushed even the die-hard avoidance advocates at least that far up the scale. Therefore, if we're talking in terms of profession perks, Inscription ranks just above herbalism and skinning, and below everything else, as a tanking profession.


Er, how does Engineering stack up? I admit however, that my Zapmote will have to be peeled from my cold, dead hands but I am pondering dropping mining for JC
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:21 pm

Njall wrote:Er, how does Engineering stack up? I admit however, that my Zapmote will have to be peeled from my cold, dead hands but I am pondering dropping mining for JC


Piece of cake:
JC - 63 stam
LW - 60 stam - best possible profession for resist fights.
BS/Ench/Mining - 60 stam
Alchemy - Somewhere just slightly below 60 stam, if flasked. Best possible profession for resist fights.
Engineering - A bunch of cool toys plus a 900 armor glove enchant worth ~62 stamina on pure physical encounters (against 18 stamina to wrist), of which there are approximately zero, so actual value is always less.
Inscription - ~36stam
Skinning - 0 stam
Herbalism - 0 stam
Last edited by Meloree on Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:33 pm

Meloree wrote:Piece of cake:
JC - 63 stam
LW/BS/Ench/Mining - 60 stam
Engineering - A bunch of cool toys plus a 900 armor glove enchant worth ~62 stamina on pure physical encounters (against 18 stamina to wrist), of which there are approximately zero, so actual value is always less.


I guess the cloak enchant doesn't count by that reckoning. :D Still, I do like mind control rayz
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Alixander » Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:02 pm

There's one untrackable benefit to being a Scribe which is almost unlimited flexibility in being able to make new glyphs. Sure, you could carry around stacks of each glyph but that's somewhat costly in terms of space. But, as a Scirbe you can just be like "BLAM! Glyph!". This still may not be worth it, but it is a beneift that's not something you can just track with numbers.

Arguably you can get the same effect from having a fully leveled Scribe there with you, but unless your guild has 2-3 that are fully leveled, you can't be sure you'll always have it available.

Another issue is the amount of money I've thrown into Inscription. As of right now I'm about 30 glyphs away from knowing every one. This is an investment of thousands and thousands of gold. Throwing that away is not something easily done. =/

Despit the pain, a small part of me is pushing to do something else, but if I did it'd be Engineering, which isn't that huge of an upgrade, as you pointed out. Whie the other five professions are bettr for tanking the "cool factor" of Engineering would make me want to go that route. :oops:

No matter what I decide, thanks for the post Meloree. :)

Njall wrote:I guess the cloak enchant doesn't count by that reckoning. :D Still, I do like mind control rayz
Unfortunately the cloak is AGI and only one more than is available via regular enchanting (the use of the slowfall aspect is less impressive since we can bubble ourselves to survive any fall). As the armor enchant for cloak gives a higher EH boost, it comes out ahead when you're pushing for your highest possible EH.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Meloree » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:11 pm

Alixander wrote:Another issue is the amount of money I've thrown into Inscription. As of right now I'm about 30 glyphs away from knowing every one. This is an investment of thousands and thousands of gold. Throwing that away is not something easily done. =/


Yeah, man, that always stings. As a newbie in 2.2, I was mining/blacksmithing, because it seemed like paladinesque professions, back when I started. In 2.3, when I started raiding and reading maintankadin, I switched to enchanting and engineering. In 2.4 when Sunwell dropped, I traded engineering for leatherworking, for drums. In 3.0, with the new profession benefits, I dropped leatherworking for blacksmithing, and just before 3.1, I dropped enchanting for jewelcrafting, because it was just too much better to pass up. Fortunately, I haven't had to change since then. But for a while the running joke was "Don't let Meloree have any patterns. He'll have new professions at the patch".

Intangible benefits are nice. I miss being an enchanter with virtually every enchant. Some things I used to have are hard to track down (shield block rating, anyone?). But intangibles might let you re-build yourself 5 minutes faster, if you need to do something wierd for a given bossfight (the first time, after that you're prepared), they'll never get you a kill that you couldn't otherwise get. Tangibles might.

It really all depends on your play level. I could not justify engineering or inscription for myself, or any of the tanks in Edge. Because I am the sort who will spend 5k to powerlevel a profession for a 3 stamina upgrade. Our bear went from JC/BS to Alch/LW entirely for Anub'arak, to make it that much easier.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Dem » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:54 pm

"It really all depends on your play level. I could not justify engineering or inscription for myself, or any of the tanks in Edge. Because I am the sort who will spend 5k to powerlevel a profession for a 3 stamina upgrade. Our bear went from JC/BS to Alch/LW entirely for Anub'arak, to make it that much easier."

I guess it depends what you need. I use alts to provide various professions and my enchanter has most of the old school stuff.

My tank's been an Engineer from BC, even when it wasn't the absolute best profession to have. I don't mind spending cash on it if needed, but tbh a 3 stam upgrade makes no difference at all - I'd rather spend that money on getting myself or a guildie a crafted piece that will help the raid out.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:47 pm

I've been engineering since I trained a profession, I guess in late December 2004. I just don't see the need to switch since I like it (most of the time) and it does at least provide some benefit. I don't have to be perfect.

I could see a different guide that detailed the relative benefits of each profession for stats or other tanking intangibles. As Meloree pointed out, the ratio for the shoulder tradeoff tends to favor the inscription enchant, but when you look at it in terms of profession tradeoff, sticking with inscription for the direct benefit is a pretty poor choice. (Any such thread should acknowledge the intangibles, including sunk cost, flexibility, guild impact, etc.)
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:30 am

Thanks for the advice. I suspect I may eventually drop mining for JC but, well, I LIKE mining. Strange but true. Of course, I'd be happier if I could get a good price for any Northrend minerals but at least I can have my alchemist smelt lots of titanium from my stacks of saronite.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:49 pm

Just read through the guide again to see how it had changed in the past few months, and I have to commend you on how well done it is. I love the addition of the icons.

I also noticed one or two things you may want to add:
1) The 18 Stamina Shield enchant isn't listed in the Enchant section, despite it being right around the threshold for level 3 tanks and well below the threshold for level 4 tanks.
2) The "Agility is 99% as good as Dodge" is based on a 3.2 simulation. I haven't gotten around to re-running it for 3.3, but I will try to do so this week. The value of Agility should go up though, insofar as it will be strictly superior to Dodge for reducing incoming damage. As soon as I get to it, I'll let you know.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:41 pm

Njall wrote:Hmm. With the growing overkill of +DEF on my gear, I am starting to consider putting the Mind Control tinker on my hat. Yes, I loose +20 DEF and gain +8 STA - and mind control I can use to toss annoying people out of Naxx, off of Ulduar, or off of Ice Crown. :D

I've added this to the stamina replacement chart.
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Re: 3.3 Gem and Enchant Guide

Postby Njall » Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:42 am

Digren wrote:I've added this to the stamina replacement chart.


Thanks. I see the ratio is pretty low. I'll hold off for a bit yet (unless I run into more flagged goofs at the summon stone in Ulduar and Naxx). I do like the tongue-in-cheek tone about engineering in the rewrite.
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