Mongoose Questions

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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Varmin » Fri May 01, 2009 11:47 pm

Salamandra wrote:The way you said it was wrong then. Changing from 1ppm to 1.2ppm would be a 20% uptime increase. Perhaps what you meant was that it changed from 1ppm to proccing 1 time per 1.2 minutes. I don't know if that's actually true or not, though.


1ppm to 1.2 ppm is a 20% increased chance to proc, however, mongoose lasts 15s and then averaged out to 18s over a minute with a 1.2ppm (which is a ~16.6% increase).



Amaranthea is correct, there is slight chance over-lapping, but I think most people average uptime not including overlap (especially considering it is such a low ppm). Also if I remember correctly, it still averages out better than 26 agi, as he said as well. I just wanted to note, that it was nerfed for level 80 (mostly to ensure that it didn't outdps berserking), but it still got nerfed for tanks.
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Eanin » Sat May 02, 2009 10:45 am

Mongoose has always been 1 ppm. The whole "Mongoose has changed" thing is some kind of weird urban legend. I think it started as a worry that Mongoose would go the way of Crusader, then it turned into a rumour, then it turned into a "fact".

Mongoose gives better avoidance than +26 agility, on average, assuming you use Hammer of Righteousness when it is on cooldown. However, Blade Warding seems to be better avoidance overall, even though it falls off.
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby steadypal » Sat May 02, 2009 11:35 am

i tested this a while back,

slower the wpn, the higher the PPM for mongoose

best i think i had was 1.43 on avg with broken promise...

that might even go up a tad with hotr glyph


it did work out to be better than 26agi, for slow and fast wpns..
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Eanin » Sat May 02, 2009 11:45 am

The reason it goes up with slower weapons is the following:

Mongoose has 1 ppm. That means that it has a 4.17% chance per swing of going off with Broken promise (2.5/60). It has a 2.67% chance of going off per swing with Last Laugh (1.6/60). On average, on your normal attacks, it goes off one time per minute.

However, that chance of a proc per swing doesn't change when you use Hammer of the Righteous. It's still 4.17% for BP and 2.67% for LL. So, you actually get even more procs from a single weapon. Since, on average, you get 10 Hammers per minute, you get an average of .417 extra procs with BP and .267 extra procs with LL.

Technically, it's still 1ppm. That's just what "ppm" means. However, yes, you will actually get more procs with a slower weapon.
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Aqu » Sun May 03, 2009 5:30 pm

Hey there, long time lurker here.

Just thought I'd post because I threw mongoose onto my thunderfury for a cheeky glow combo and while I was beating on a target dummy to test the blade ward I have on LL I thought I'd see what mongoose was like. It procced 3 times in about 18 seconds meaning that I had the buff on constantly for just over 30 seconds.
Has it always been like this, I was always under the impression it had an internal cooldown giving it (as mentioned here) just over 1 ppm. However proccing that often it looks like either I was mistaken or that the internal CD has been removed/changed.

Did a few tests with a dummy while using judgement and hotr and it procced 9 times in 5 mins. Is this normal and I've been underestimating it all this time or has the internal CD been removed? I mean we've seen it before where blizz changing one thing completely changes another with seemingly no link. Stealth buff or stupid pala? :)
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby amh » Mon May 04, 2009 7:02 am

Mongoose does not have (doubt it ever did) an internal cooldown. The ppm is measured by hours and hours and hours of testing, and evened out. If it had an internal cooldown it´d be pretty silly to have it on both weapons for dual-wielding classes :)
I used to play a paladin.
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Varmin » Tue May 05, 2009 1:36 am

Eanin wrote:Mongoose has always been 1 ppm. The whole "Mongoose has changed" thing is some kind of weird urban legend. I think it started as a worry that Mongoose would go the way of Crusader, then it turned into a rumour, then it turned into a "fact".

Mongoose gives better avoidance than +26 agility, on average, assuming you use Hammer of Righteousness when it is on cooldown. However, Blade Warding seems to be better avoidance overall, even though it falls off.


Weird, I'm pretty sure all my old rogue spreadsheets had it as 1.2 in TBC and the start of WotLK. Maybe they just always had it wrong. I'd have to scroll through some really old EJ stuff to even check which I'd rather not.

But it is for sure 1ppm currently on live for comparison purposes to other enchants.
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby cds4850 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:24 pm

**NECRO**

Is there any discussion on these boards for current Mongoose uptime or average agility contribution over time?
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby chinoquezada » Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:47 pm

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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Digren » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:22 pm

The proc rate and up time was greatly increased, and it went onto the short list as a "good" weapon enchant.

Wow, don't necro stuff like that. I was rearing up for a massive correction post before I saw how old the comments were.
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Mert » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:02 pm

Imagine how surprised I was to find that the noob in the OP was, in fact, me a year ago! I didn't even notice at first, I just read it and thought "of course it doesn't proc from ShoR, why would he think that?" :lol:
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Awyndel » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:11 pm

Actually it was recently nerfed. I think by the bryntoll nerf and the ppm nerf. I am only seeing 25% uptime on this. It's worth about the same as agility for those numbers. Accuracy or blood draining imo.

Old necro is old :P
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby cds4850 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Rather than speculating on this, can anyone explain to me how I can search a combat parse for uptime? If so, can you toss me the parameters that I should use while compiling the data set (ie should I run it hit cap/exp cap, naked, wearing a wedding dress?) We agree that agility is good, but if this enchant is not giving more agility over time than static 26, I can stop running it and revisit Blood Draining.

I've always loved this enchant for the well rounded benefit it provided tanks, even for a proc: armor, threat, and avoidance. I'd feel better letting it die if I saw proof that it has been dead for longer than I've realized.
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:11 pm

cds4850 wrote:Rather than speculating on this, can anyone explain to me how I can search a combat parse for uptime? If so, can you toss me the parameters that I should use while compiling the data set (ie should I run it hit cap/exp cap, naked, wearing a wedding dress?) We agree that agility is good, but if this enchant is not giving more agility over time than static 26, I can stop running it and revisit Blood Draining.

I've always loved this enchant for the well rounded benefit it provided tanks, even for a proc: armor, threat, and avoidance. I'd feel better letting it die if I saw proof that it has been dead for longer than I've realized.


Hmm. Probably the easiest is to check against real-world data -- on WorldofLogs I looked at all boss kills for our past two raids and it's reporting a Lightning Speed uptime of 17.4% and 17.6%

Looking at all boss kill parses for the previous two weeks show uptimes of:

19.6%
21.6%
21.6%
18.8%
22.1%
22.6%

All of the weapons I have it on are fast maces (LK mace, h.Morrowgar mace, last word (albeit 1.8))
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Re: Mongoose Questions

Postby Digren » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:18 pm

So best case 22% uptime gives Mongoose an average agility of 120 x .22 = 26. That's the same as you get with Exceptional Agility.

Would anyone rather have uncontrolled spikes of +94 agility 22% of the time, with -26 agility the other 78% of the time?
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