Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:49 am

The chests off Rotface are colored in blue instead of purple and regular gunship shoulders are typo'd :)

Was giving the list a once-over compared to my paladin and noticed these 2 things :P
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:36 am

I think you might be severely under-valuing armor with the new items. Even if you're trying to provide a "balanced" view, it's hard to discount the massive advantage armor has over threat and avoidance in ICC.

The armor on the Bile-Encrusted Medallion makes it vastly superior to the Noose of Malachite. I'd even go as far as to suggest that the 264-level Medallion should be ahead of the 277-level Noose. The only place you'd want to use the Noose is a threat or high-defense/high-avoidance set.

Similarly with Sentinel's Winter Cloak and Royal Crimson Cloak - the badge cloak is just better than RCC277 outside of a hit or avoidance set.

Blightborne Warplate is vastly overvalued. The 277 version might be on par with Cataclysmic Chestguard, though I'd still say Cat is superior by virtue of the armor. The 264 version is on par with Ghoul Commander's Cuirass. If you wanted my ranking on these items, here's how I'd do it:

1. 277 T10
2. Cataclysmic, 264 T10
3. 277 Blightborne
4. 264 Blightborne, 264 Ghoul

Again with bracers:
1. 264 Gargoyle, 277 Dark Reckoning
2. 251 Gargoyle, 264 Dark Reckoning

Gloves:
1. 277 T10
2. 264 T10, Kraken, 277 Taldaram
3. 264 Taldaram, 264 Veincrusher

Belt:
1. Verdigris
2. 277 Belt of Broken Bones
3. 264 Belt of Broken Bones, 264 Ironrope

Legs:
1. Pillars of Might
2. 277 Lost Hope, 277 T10
3. 264 Lost Hope, 264 Deathforged, 264 T10 (legs are the worst-itemized tier piece for us this time around)

Rings:
1. 277 Deviums
2. 264 Deviums, 277 Juggs, 277 Ashen
3. 264 Juggs, 264 Ashen,
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Petrus » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:27 am

I really am undervaluing it *but* the fact that some of these pieces have hit drastically changes their rankings (imo). Hit is very valuable (I try at least to keep myself over 200 at all times and eat hit food if necessary) and I find that sometimes wearing that extra piece of hit gear to make sure I pick up the add means that I prevented a wipe as often as me wearing more armor pieces (though I obviously do the latter for something such as Festergut).

I'm going to go over the whole list again early next week and redo some of the rankings for sure, though.

Fixed the typos, btw.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:33 am

Hit is nice, but it's by no means necessary, and you're probably stacking more than you need to.

Note that almost every add is ICC is going to be level 82, which means you only need 6% spell hit or 157.4 hit rating to be hit-capped for taunts. The only exceptions are Raging Spirits and Shambling Horrors in the LK encounter (which are 83), but that's also generally a fight where you can't sacrifice survival for hit rating, and your raid is usually set up to assist you with those add pick-ups (Tricks, MD, LK positioning, etc).

If we assume that you're using Accuracy on your weapon that drops the required rating to 133; Hit food drops you down to 93, and a draenei in your party drops you another 26 rating if you're alliance. Note that if you glyph Righteous Defense, you are automatically hit-capped for taunting adds.

Even without the racial bonus, 100 hit rating isn't that hard to obtain. The tier gloves for example, which even at the 264 level are very strong, provide a good chunk of that. At best, you might want one or two items with hit on them to cover that ~100 rating to get you into the comfort zone, and since there are an abundance of options, you'll be better-served trying to pick them from amongst the slots where there isn't a bonus armor alternative.

So in short, there's no good reason to value hit as strongly as you are. There are only a couple fights where add-taunting is important, and glyphing Righteous Defense or swapping in a single high-hit item for those fights is a better strategy than maintaining 200+ hit rating in your primary, high-survivability gear set. Hit should really be viewed as a threat stat, which while helpful, isn't needed beyond the first 30 seconds of most encounters.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Vorianloken » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:23 am

I'm trying to get rid of my massive ~10% hit as tank at the moment in mostly ICC and Frost gear >.<
Vorianloken - 80 Prot/Ret || Ajeet - 80 Frost Tank/Unholy DPS || Nunnaly - 80 Cat/Tree Druid || Bulveye - 74 Protection Warrior || Sherana - 80 Combat Rogue || Shadallas - 40 Demo Warlock

US-Medivh Power! 7th April 2010 - The day when Dual-Wield Frost Tanking was assassinated. R.I.P my dear friend.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby tlitp » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:24 am

theckhd wrote:Hit should really be viewed as a threat stat

That's really one of those moments... I agree wholeheartedly with the fact the "normal people" should know the primary roles of hit/expertise/weapon swing timer. But I also think that newbie-friendly (general purpose) guides should not fail to mention the more subtle aspects :
  1. Is hit a threat stat primarily ? Yes. But it also helps with both defensive (vindication, proc-based weapon enchants) and execution (taunts, stuns) mechanisms.
  2. Is expertise a threat stat primarily ? Yes. But it also helps with defensive (vindication, proc-based weapon enchants, parryhaste) mechanisms.
  3. Is the weapon swing timer a threat stat primarily (all other stats being equal) ? Yes. But it also helps with defensive (vindication, proc-based weapon enchants, parryhaste) mechanisms.
More informed/experienced tanks will probably find these aspects somewhat obvious. But the bulk of the guides' target will definitely not. And if we're to help people we should do it right.

Speaking of which, can someone (with a TS account) help me explain that Blood Draining is nowhere near being a fucking option as far as EH-like metrics are concerned ?
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Meloree » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:48 am

theckhd wrote:Rings:
1. 277 Deviums
2. 264 Deviums, 277 Juggs, 277 Ashen
3. 264 Juggs, 264 Ashen,


Where would you put 245 Band of the Twin Valkyrs?
I'd certainly rather wear 264 Deviums than 245 Twin Valks, but I'd rather wear 245 Twin Valks than 277 Juggs/Ashen, and I'd definitely wear it over 264 Juggs/264 Ashen (standard caveat: in most progresison situations).

That said, I'm not sure my experience with progression is at all relevant anymore, as so much changes between 0 and 20% buff levels that I may well be completely out to lunch in valuing survival as high as I tend to.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Lieris » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:58 am

theckhd wrote:Note that almost every add is ICC is going to be level 82, which means you only need 6% spell hit or 157.4 hit rating to be hit-capped for taunts. The only exceptions are Raging Spirits and Shambling Horrors in the LK encounter (which are 83), but that's also generally a fight where you can't sacrifice survival for hit rating, and your raid is usually set up to assist you with those add pick-ups (Tricks, MD, LK positioning, etc).

I have to pickup the ghouls and the horrors during P1 heroic LK. I also have to dispel the necrotic plagues. I have no tricks and no MDs. FML.

So yeah that's why I switched to T10 gloves for more hit.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:28 pm

Meloree wrote:
theckhd wrote:Rings:
1. 277 Deviums
2. 264 Deviums, 277 Juggs, 277 Ashen
3. 264 Juggs, 264 Ashen,


Where would you put 245 Band of the Twin Valkyrs?

In the pile of mythical items that never dropped for me.

In all seriousness though, I'd probably put it on-par with the 277 Jugs/Ashen. From a pure EH perspective it's better than either, but the extra avoidance and/or hit from the other rings is enough to make it a toss-up.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Petrus » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:34 pm

245 Valks is a tremendous piece but IMO outclassed by the Exalted Ashen ring, both Deviums, and 277 Jugg's. However it is definitely on par with the 264 Harbinger's and 264 Jugg's but I don't think my guide reflects this at the moment.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby cds4850 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:38 am

The choice to go with static armor on the 245 valk ring versus the rep ring's 20% proc uptime and greater stamina is a personal one I'd assume. I think we all agree that we'd prefer the rep ring if it had a significantly higher uptime even if the armor contribution was less.

That being said, for effective health purposes, the 245 valk ring still holds its own considering it gives up 22 stamina to gain 532 armor in comparison to the 277 Juggernaut's. Provided we are only looking at the stamina/armor contributions, it excels over Harbinger's given that the 532 armor only comes at the cost of 4 stamina.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby theckhd » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:39 pm

cds4850 wrote:The choice to go with static armor on the 245 valk ring versus the rep ring's 20% proc uptime and greater stamina is a personal one I'd assume. I think we all agree that we'd prefer the rep ring if it had a significantly higher uptime even if the armor contribution was less.

I've never seen 20% uptime from the rep ring. All estimates I've ever seen were around 2-3% uptime. I'd love to be proven wrong on this though. Even at 20% uptime, it'd be more attractive than it is now.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:13 am

I'd put the Valk ring between Jugg and Ashen (277).
I think the Ashen ring is quite bad as the proc is nearly worthless and the loss of 11 stam stings.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Petrus » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:12 pm

There's an update coming soon that reflects the armor changes. After a look back, some of the "low" ranking of the Val'kyr ring was due to the fact that I simply didn't move it up from its former position and just added all the ICC rings on top of it, so now it will be in its proper place.
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Re: Petrus's Master Gear List Discussion Thread

Postby Petrus » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:20 am

Updated!

I think my ring rankings may be a bit off/Valk ring may be too high. Thoughts?
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