Is Heavy Borean Armor Kit the best universal buff to gloves?

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What is the best universal buff for glove slot.

Heavy Borean Armor Kit
52
28%
Armsmen
84
45%
Precision
10
5%
Expertise
4
2%
Crusher
1
1%
Exceptional Spellpower
1
1%
15 strength
16
9%
20 Agility
12
6%
240 armor
7
4%
 
Total votes : 187

Postby Eanin » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:31 pm

Majiben wrote:
Eanin wrote:The problem with +15 str, as I see it, is that it is an inferior threat enchant to armsman, an inferior EH enchant to +18 stam, an inferior mitigation enchant to 240 armor and an inferior avoidances enchant to +20 agility.
Yeah but it is the best Dps enchant out there. Also it has no avoidance portion O.o


...and an inferior dps enchant to crusher. :)
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Postby majiben » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:36 pm

Eanin wrote:
Majiben wrote:
Eanin wrote:The problem with +15 str, as I see it, is that it is an inferior threat enchant to armsman, an inferior EH enchant to +18 stam, an inferior mitigation enchant to 240 armor and an inferior avoidances enchant to +20 agility.
Yeah but it is the best Dps enchant out there. Also it has no avoidance portion O.o
...and an inferior dps enchant to crusher. :)
Actually no. You'll be suprised how good BV is for dps. Besides you're only trading 6 AP for 13 BV.
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Postby Martie » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:08 pm

Majiben wrote:I find it curious how inconsistent your math was. You applied DR to some of the enchants but not others and failed to mention the base stats you were assuming.

+15str is not useless as you claim. For myself it reduces the incomming dps by the same amount until the hits are larger than 5000k as arms man. You completely ignored the DR on parry which for many oeople make 10 parry rating worth 70% of what it is worth without.


Honestly, I don't really care about mobs hitting me for 5k. Trash does that, they are called trash for a reason.

I used myself as a starting point, I'm a decently geared pally tank. I calculated in DR where it was a factor.
Parry rating is, as everyone knows, a secondary stat for avoidance. So the majority of parry will be coming from talents and defense, with what incidentals that come with gear. So the the parry that has DR applied to it will be around 6-7%.
Furthermore...
ABOUT
Last edited by Martie on Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby majiben » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:17 pm

Martie wrote:
Majiben wrote:I find it curious how inconsistent your math was. You applied DR to some of the enchants but not others and failed to mention the base stats you were assuming.

+15str is not useless as you claim. For myself it reduces the incomming dps by the same amount until the hits are larger than 5000k as arms man. You completely ignored the DR on parry which for many oeople make 10 parry rating worth 70% of what it is worth without.
I used myself as a starting point, I'm a decently geared pally tank. I calculated in DR where it was a factor.
Parry rating is, as everyone knows, a secondary stat for avoidance. So the majority of parry will be coming from talents and defense, with what incidentals that come with gear. So the the parry that has DR applied to it will be around 6-7%.
Furthermore...
ABOUT
You're still wrong for doing your math inconsistently. You're also wrong for not stating your starting point explicitly, which you still haven't. You haven't even stated whether the self you're using is raid buffed or unbuffed.

Also you already have significant DR on parry. you're only getting 75% of the undiminished value of parry rating.
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Postby thenNATEgoes » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:30 pm

Eanin wrote:
Majiben wrote:
Eanin wrote:The problem with +15 str, as I see it, is that it is an inferior threat enchant to armsman, an inferior EH enchant to +18 stam, an inferior mitigation enchant to 240 armor and an inferior avoidances enchant to +20 agility.
Yeah but it is the best Dps enchant out there. Also it has no avoidance portion O.o


...and an inferior dps enchant to crusher. :)


No. +44 Ap, doesn't scale with any raid buffs.

Raid buffed you're looking at possibly 19 strength, factoring divine strenght and kings, which also works to 38 AP, k crusher is +6 ap more, thats cool... Followed by the 12~13 BV mitigation + shield of righteous deeps and a little added bonus threat...

Out threating armsmen is another debate, but as far as a dps enchant for raids, +15str hands down ia a far more superior enchant than crusher.
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Postby Martie » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:51 pm

Majiben wrote:You're still wrong for doing your math inconsistently. You're also wrong for not stating your starting point explicitly, which you still haven't. You haven't even stated whether the self you're using is raid buffed or unbuffed.

Also you already have significant DR on parry. you're only getting 75% of the undiminished value of parry rating.

Since there is no solid starting point, the numbers given were preceded by an 'about'.
http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=a ... rch=search
Look for entry 3.

Raid buffed or not is irrelevant in most cases. Where it is, I clearly mentioned it.

Talking about wrong math, you need 8.46% parry before diminishing returns to only get 75% of the rating's real value. (I naturally ignore the 10% that isn't affected by it and substracted it from the total.)(Explaining things that are common sense to me is annoying.)
8.46% parry requires 612 defense, which is a lot, or about (there's that word again. It denotes a number that is an estimate) 140 parry rating over your 540 defense. (Again, I feel the need to explain something that is common sense to me. Parry rating is not ideal to have, itemization value is better spent on other things, so having a lot shouldn't be aimed for. I'm at 122 myself, working on replacing those items with better things.)
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Postby Jellypop » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:46 pm

if your talking about tanking

i'd perfer 20 hit myself honestly

threat? LOL
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Postby Xanadiel » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:49 pm

Martie wrote:
Majiben wrote:I used myself as a starting point, I'm a decently geared pally tank. I calculated in DR where it was a factor.
Parry rating is, as everyone knows, a secondary stat for avoidance. So the majority of parry will be coming from talents and defense, with what incidentals that come with gear. So the the parry that has DR applied to it will be around 6-7%.
Furthermore...
ABOUT


How cute, you still haven't dropped engineering which was likely the biggest disappointment for professions in WotLK.

Also, parry may warrant you less avoidance per rating and also suffers from diminishing returns, but the fact is that most avoidance sets are itemized with +dodge and +parry. You're going to be gaining a large amount of parry even if you don't want it.

On other notes, I'm currently using Armsmen on my cheap T7, but will most likely switch over to 20 Agi or 240 armor on my next upgrade. As has already been stated in this topic, Armsmen is the poor man's 20 Agi. If I see a threat loss (which is most likely going to be negligible) I'll switch over to 15 Str, because it is both a threat boost and a damage reduction factor.
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Postby Martie » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:02 am

I still haven't gotten an upgrade for my goggles either.
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Postby thenNATEgoes » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:53 am

Martie wrote:I still haven't gotten an upgrade for my goggles either.


That's what I waited for 'til I dropped engineering.

Yar, that's one of the reasons I figured so many people chose armsment.. Either unaware of the choices they had or just waiting till an upgrade.
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Postby majiben » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:42 am

Moved to the discussion forum since that's the way the thread moved toward. Keep discussing!
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Postby Neroth » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:36 am

Got my T7.5 gloves last night and promptly put Agility on them.

Until I'm comfortably block capped or until I'm pushed any at all on Threat I'll take the avoidance +crit +Armor.
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Postby tuberon » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:18 pm

Best glove enchant:

Blacksmithing:Socket Gloves
Warning: Above poster makes no claims to validity or sanity of said post.

Also... cake.
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Postby majiben » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:34 pm

Tuberon wrote:Best glove enchant:

Blacksmithing:Socket Gloves
Not an enchant.
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Postby Conaan! » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:54 pm

personally armsman is the best choice

pro's:
Threat
--Burst threat increased for grabbing certain mob faster
--Steady threat increase for malygos type fights where there is high damage increase for damage dealers but not tanks

Mitigation
--Provides a stat that is subject to less DR then dodge

Cons':
Threat
--no lolprot dps'ing with this enchant and RF on
--Threat really isnt a issue for most fights

Mitigation
--loss of stam enchant slot
--could have large DR on parry
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Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:22 pm

Conaan! wrote:personally armsman is the best choice

pro's:
Threat
--Burst threat increased for grabbing certain mob faster
--Steady threat increase for malygos type fights where there is high damage increase for damage dealers but not tanks

Mitigation
--Provides a stat that is subject to less DR then dodge

Cons':
Threat
--no lolprot dps'ing with this enchant and RF on
--Threat really isnt a issue for most fights

Mitigation
--loss of stam enchant slot
--could have large DR on parry

I don't follow your logic here. If all of those Pros and Cons are referring to Armsman, then the two bolded sections contradict each other. And Parry is subject to far worse DR than dodge, making it inferior to Agility for avoidance.

If "Threat" is referring to Armsman and "Mitigation" refers to Agility, then both bolded sections are just plain incorrect.

Personally, I stick with the old rule of thumb: Enchant to the strength of the item. If you're considering a BV/EH item, then stam or armor would be your choice. An avoidance item would get Agility, and so forth.

For example, I put Armsman on Gauntlets of the Disobedient because I intend to use them mostly for a trash tanking set, and I like the extra threat for AoE tanking. On the other hand, T7.5 gloves get Agility for an avoidance set.
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Postby Threatco » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:36 pm

I think he means it could be good for you because of parry's intialy lower DR, until you stack parry, in which case it becomes a con.

I realy did miss 20 Agi. But I am not so great at working out AGI-avoidance. I have AGI on my weapon too and some of my gear side grade options are deep dodge. Is it possible to DR dodge so high (in current patch) that armsman is no longer the pauper (malygos fight arguement aside). I doubt I am there yet but it makes me think.

I think the biggest debate here is on STR, because there so many steps in the logic. STR gives some 2 AP + 1/2 BV. (please correct me if I am wrong with #s)

AP is easy to understand, but BV is so situational. We all know it an love it. But do we need it over classic tank stats? How will we know?

With all the other options available to us, it's hard to choose something we are not sure if it is the best option in any situation.

Without being able to point to a maintankadin.failsafedesign.com thread that agree's with me I would feel less confident going into lolnub arguements with other tanks on my server.
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Postby Conaan! » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:45 am

theckhd wrote:
Conaan! wrote:personally armsman is the best choice

pro's:
Threat
--Burst threat increased for grabbing certain mob faster
--Steady threat increase for malygos type fights where there is high damage increase for damage dealers but not tanks

Mitigation
--Provides a stat that is subject to less DR then dodge

Cons':
Threat
--no lolprot dps'ing with this enchant and RF on
--Threat really isnt a issue for most fights

Mitigation
--loss of stam enchant slot
--could have large DR on parry

I don't follow your logic here. If all of those Pros and Cons are referring to Armsman, then the two bolded sections contradict each other. And Parry is subject to far worse DR than dodge, making it inferior to Agility for avoidance.

If "Threat" is referring to Armsman and "Mitigation" refers to Agility, then both bolded sections are just plain incorrect.

Personally, I stick with the old rule of thumb: Enchant to the strength of the item. If you're considering a BV/EH item, then stam or armor would be your choice. An avoidance item would get Agility, and so forth.

For example, I put Armsman on Gauntlets of the Disobedient because I intend to use them mostly for a trash tanking set, and I like the extra threat for AoE tanking. On the other hand, T7.5 gloves get Agility for an avoidance set.


im talking armsmen, and no, they dont contradict

on one hand you could have low parry that isnt subject to DR, so your parry rating is used to its fullest, where on the other hand you may have tons of parry, making it worth less because of DR
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Postby Deet » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 am

I picked Heavy Borean Armor Kit not because it was particularly best at anything, but rather I consider it practically the only glove "enchant" that is utilized irrelevant of situation, which I think is the only way to evaluate what the universally "best" enchant is. This does not mean that you should always use it or anything like that, just that it's the only one I see other than expertise/hit that is always effectively serving it's purpose.

Armor/Parry/Agility won't help you against casters, Threat won't necessarily have any positive impact you when you already have a surplus (which really isn't hard with this expansion,) and increased damage while being nice certainly isn't at the top of the priority list. However, I consider increased health universally useful, so I consider the stam kit universally "best." I'm using armsman right now because it was an easy way to level my enchanting and I think it's a very nice enchant. Still, from the perspective of tanking any given any given situation I don't think you can really beat stamina in terms of how universally effective it can be.
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Postby Marihan » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:41 am

maybe it just me but i prefer Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket
its profession only, but has 45 yards range and 1 min cd

i dont have threat issues so if it comes to avoidance i would use the agi enchant, though history shows i would go for stamina because i cant stand that my fellow warriortank has more hp than me(mostly useless effort :( )
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Postby majiben » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:03 am

Conaan! wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Conaan! wrote:personally armsman is the best choice

pro's:
Threat
--Burst threat increased for grabbing certain mob faster
--Steady threat increase for malygos type fights where there is high damage increase for damage dealers but not tanks

Mitigation
--Provides a stat that is subject to less DR then dodge

Cons':
Threat
--no lolprot dps'ing with this enchant and RF on
--Threat really isnt a issue for most fights

Mitigation
--loss of stam enchant slot
--could have large DR on parry

I don't follow your logic here. If all of those Pros and Cons are referring to Armsman, then the two bolded sections contradict each other. And Parry is subject to far worse DR than dodge, making it inferior to Agility for avoidance.

If "Threat" is referring to Armsman and "Mitigation" refers to Agility, then both bolded sections are just plain incorrect.

Personally, I stick with the old rule of thumb: Enchant to the strength of the item. If you're considering a BV/EH item, then stam or armor would be your choice. An avoidance item would get Agility, and so forth.

For example, I put Armsman on Gauntlets of the Disobedient because I intend to use them mostly for a trash tanking set, and I like the extra threat for AoE tanking. On the other hand, T7.5 gloves get Agility for an avoidance set.


im talking armsmen, and no, they dont contradict

on one hand you could have low parry that isnt subject to DR, so your parry rating is used to its fullest, where on the other hand you may have tons of parry, making it worth less because of DR
If your parry isn't being sevrely affected by DR then you are below the defense minimum. Defense rating affects, miss, dodge, and parry's DR.
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Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:27 am

Conaan! wrote:im talking armsmen, and no, they dont contradict

on one hand you could have low parry that isnt subject to DR, so your parry rating is used to its fullest, where on the other hand you may have tons of parry, making it worth less because of DR

Without that clarification, they are contradictory. If i say:
Con: My house is more likely to catch on fire
Pro: My house won't catch on fire
those are contradictory if I forget to add "when it's raining" to the second one. Specifying that you're considering very different scenarios is pretty important in that case.

In addition, when discussing diminishing returns, one is usually referring to the entire range of that stat, in which case it's incorrect to say Parry is subject to less DR than dodge. If your pro under "mitigation" had read "For a character with very low parry and high dodge, Parry rating can give more avoidance than Dodge rating," then we'd be in complete agreement. But as you'll see, that very specific case is also pretty unrealistic.

More to the point, I don't know any tankadin that has low parry. Perhaps if you're in really low-ilvl starter gear after just hitting 70. The ilvl 200+ gear that drops in raids is already overbudgeted on parry, so if you're getting any Naxx gear you're going to have more parry than you want in the first place. I think it's safe to say that for anybody who's got gear appropriate for 25-man raid tanking, parry will see worse diminishing returns than dodge.

This thread gives more of the theorycrafting behind it, but at current gear levels, ideal ratios would be equal parts dodge and defense rating, and a parry rating equal to approximately 1/5 of your dodge rating.

Which means your very specific (very low parry and high dodge) case where Parry is better than Dodge is also unrealistic for anyone who's at the level of tanking heroics or higher. Overall, this means Armsman is a bad "best choice" to be suggesting for the vast majority of tankadins.

edit: and Majiben beat me to it by 20-odd minutes.
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Postby Darus » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:48 am

Gearing for ulduar and assuming threat wont be an issue then 18 stamina should come out on top.
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Postby majiben » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:39 am

theckhd wrote:edit: and Majiben beat me to it by 20-odd minutes.
You said it better :-)
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Postby Fedaykin98 » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:42 pm

I'm running with Armsman for now because the STA kit didn't occur to me. Now that I've PUGed a few 25s where I'm sometimes the high STA tank and sometimes #2, I'm starting to feel like I want 540 Def and then the only other stat to really aim for is as much STA as possible. I mean, I'm gemming to get socket bonuses and all, but apart from that.

Probably my perception is being skewed by that of the PUG raid leaders; all they care about is uncrittable and then the highest HP tank gets to MT. Guild is working on options for our own 25s.
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