Threatco's Gear and 102.4% questions.

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Am I okay as is for Kara?

Yes
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No
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Total votes : 9

Threatco's Gear and 102.4% questions.

Postby Threatco » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:33 am

Hello everyone.

I have some questions about my gear. And what I should be aiming to replace it with.

Im 70 prot pal on Arthas Horde.

In my tank gear my HP is only 10700 and 11000 Armor. Not very good.

I have however over capped my defence so I have some room now to start removing up to 40 defence rating to be at 490 defence.

Since armory is down (I think) ill post the link to the items most in question.


Main hand: Shard of the Virtuous http://thottbot.com/i28522

+40 SP enchant.

I have Millennium Blade http://thottbot.com/i28184 as extra mitigation alternative but it seems very weak compared to the shard so I usualy just use the shard.

Im gusseing either Merciless Gladiator's Gavel http://thottbot.com/i32963 or Sun Eater http://thottbot.com/i29362 for an alternative.

I only now found out how dps is so important in 3.0 on the main hand weapons stats it's. For dps weapon I have easy acces to the exalted Aldor 1 hander. Vindicator's Brand http://thottbot.com/i29124 But I never realy looked at dps weapons pre 3.0 so im limited in the number of options im aware of.

If I carry 3 with me. What enchant should be on my tank weapon? Im assuming potency for my dps weapon?


Off Hand: I have Shield of the Void http://thottbot.com/i28166

Seems I could do alot better here but no idea what shield I should Aim for. Also is it normal for Enchant Shield - Major Stamina to be so hard to find? Ive checked with about 10 375 chanters no one has it.

Belt: Sha'tari Vindicator's Waistguard http://thottbot.com/i31460

Seems like a good belt, but mabey I could get more stamina from a PvP belt.

Gloves: Felsteel gloves http://thottbot.com/i23517

I have these gemmed for stamina and enchanted with + spell damage which cost alot but would a cheap Heavy Knothide Armor Kit be better? Or + armor?

Shoulder: Pauldrons of Brute Force http://thottbot.com/i24463. Gemmed for stam and with exalted aldor inscription. These blow chunks and i need to replace them bad. Im considering the shoulders off Laj Spaulders of the Righteous http://thottbot.com/i27739. But the S2 shoulders seem like lightyears ahead of both. Merciless Gladiator's Lamellar Shoulders http://thottbot.com/i31996

One important question that I have about these pvp peices. Does 1 resiliance = 1 defence for becoming uncritable? Or is it some other relation?

If I end up with 50 resiliance will I only need 440 defence to be uncritable?

I digress...

Feet: Flesh Beast's Metal Greaves http://thottbot.com/i29325 I have some nice Epic plate spell power boots but except for 23 stamina they have no tank stats. And these kind of suck. Should I get some PvP boots or something else?

Chest: Vindicator's Hauberk http://thottbot.com/i29127. This is another case where it seems like the S2 gear would be way better. Merciless Gladiator's Lamellar Chestpiece http://thottbot.com/i31992

What enchant for here? Still exceptional health or stats?

Helm: Myrmidon's Headdress http://thottbot.com/i28180. Seems like I should have the S2 helm Merciless Gladiator's Lamellar Helm http://thottbot.com/i31997. I do have timekeepers inscription.


Neck: Mark of the Ravenguard http://thottbot.com/i29336 Not a bad peice but mabey some room for improvement.

Rings: Andormu's Tear http://thottbot.com/i29323 and Iron Band of the Unbreakable http://thottbot.com/i27436. Good mit peices but could realy use more stam on the tear.

Trinkets: Regal Protectorate http://thottbot.com/i28042 and Adamantine Figurine http://thottbot.com/i27891. 0 stam here. Awful. I realy need stam. Thought not sure how much a darkmoon card would cost, or realy what my options are pre raiding.

I left out a few peices as they are pretty good for now. If anyone can make suggestions about what to replace that gear with. Or answer my questions.

1. about resil to defence ratio as related to being uncritable.

2. Also does AP/Strength up our dps in regular 5 man tanking compareably to spell power?

3. Also about Block Value. How is it for paladins? Every thing I read about it is written by a warrior and goes something like "yeah mit is nice but check these 6 k shield slam crits!" So do we care?

As for my poll question. My other gear on wrist is Bracers of the Green Fortress. On back Cloak of Blade Turning. On Legs Timewarden's Leggings with + 40 stam+ 12 agil buff gemmed for stam. On libram slot have the badges + block rating libram.

Thanks for your time and your help!
Last edited by Threatco on Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:45 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Postby Threatco » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:26 am

Ok i tried some more research here and I think I have mostly covered question 2.

Does AP/Strength up our dps in regular 5 man tanking compareably to spell power?

Spell power helps for 4 or more targets. AP and weapons dps for 3 or under targets. So basicly on a full run you want 2 kinds of dps weapons and a boss tanking weapon.

I still would realy love answers to questions 1 and 3. And or some gear upgrade recomendations. Hence the little bump :wink:

I realy don't want to spend more time in AV then I need to. So any alternative. Or encouragement that I can MT raids with the stats I have. Mainly focused on not having to spend time in AV farming honor and S2 peices so I can survive kara/za/gruuls as MT.

Thanks for any input.
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Postby Barathorn » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:44 am

Get into Karazhan and grab as much gear as possible, you should be able to MT it now its been nerfed. Once you have some gear from Karazhan, this thread will prove useful, if a little dated now.

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... 52&start=0

Hover over your resilience figure and get the % towards being critically hit, then hover over your defense rating and do the same. If they add up to 5.6% then your good to go vs level 73 Raid Bosses.

Block Value is our friend, but not something we actively have to seek. At level 75 we get the 'shield slam' ability [cant remember its bloody name sorry] so that will be another threat generator. As a tankadin you tend to block a lot, the more you block and the higher your block value, the less incoming damage you have to take, so in that respect Block Value is quite important for us. Don't worry about it to much, as your gear gets better, your BV rises naturally :)

Sorry I didn't answer sooner.

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Postby guillex » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:45 am

Bara's been slacking lately.

With the nerf, you'll be fine to MT kara. The only thing I'm wondering is why you're using a healing mace as your MH.

Also, if you'd be so kind as to use wowhead links, we'd then be able to just mouse over and get an item link. Thottbot doesn't have that capability implemented on these forums yet.

:)
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Postby Threatco » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:08 am

DELETE PLS. didnt mean to double post and wont let me delete
Last edited by Threatco on Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Threatco » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:08 am

Well for the healing mace, with 3.0 its now a spell power mace. Tho I admit it defiantly needs replacing.

It helps to have the encouragement that i can MT kara, but the low HP stigma is still keeping me out of most PUGs, as my guild is useless.

So can anyone comment on my gear upgrade options focused on stamina? Specifically my rings, trinkets, and shoulder piece. I would like to reach 12000 HP unbuffed if only so I can appeal to raid leaders more. Is it attainable with pre raid upgrades?
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Postby Tyaera » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:22 am

AP contributes to damage at exactly the same rate as Spellpower, and if you get the AP through Strength, it scales with talents and Kings, and you get block value too
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Postby Threatco » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:33 am

Well. Ive come a little ways from when I posted this. But the question remains. Where to go from here?

My armory is up to date Nov 07.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-tale ... n=Threatco

Whats the next best thing i can aim for before xpac? Leaning towards expertise/parry side for 70-80 farming. but also MTing for the next week.

Going to trade something with the DEF buffer i built up. Like badge neck/ stam trinket

HP: 15117
DEF: 502
AP: 1046
SP: 398
Dodge: 23.41%
Parry: 18.05%
Block: 21.73%
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Postby econ21 » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:14 am

Threatco wrote:Well. Ive come a little ways from when I posted this.


11k HP to 15k HP is more than a little way!

But the question remains. Where to go from here?


To Northrend, like the rest of us, of course!

Whats the next best thing i can aim for before xpac? Leaning towards expertise/parry side for 70-80 farming. but also MTing for the next week.

Going to trade something with the DEF buffer i built up. Like badge neck/ stam trinket


What I have done for the xpac, is collect a "ret set" of gear for levelling that stacks Str/AP. I don't reckon much to expertise/parry for farming. Maxdps.com should give you a nice loot list to pick from.

If you want to change the neck for something more threat/sta oriented, you could grind SSO for their neck (also nice necks for ret and healing). The cash from dailies might also be nice.

MgT has the best sta trinket - heck, the best trinket full stop.

If you get the badges, the sunguard legs might be good for up to about level 78 or so.

Looking at your character sheet though, I would prioritise levelling mining. Lots of nice new ores in Northrend and it would be a shame for a miner to walk past them all. Again, the money from the grind pre-xpac could come in handy come the 13th.
Last edited by econ21 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Barathorn » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:15 am

Threatco, may I ask why you are gemming for parry rating? Its the least efficient defense stat as far as I am aware?

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Postby Threatco » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:39 am

It's my understanding that a raid tank takes dodge over parry because this happens.

Prince attacks.

Tank parrys.

Tank gets extra attack from parry.

Prince parrys. Gets 2 attacks in a row. Ouch!

So it makes sense not to be the best for near EH min MTing, as it is risky throwing faster melee atacks at boss as with reckoning because he will toss em back at you with parry/counter attack.

But you still are upping dps and tps by getting more parry/counter attacks yourself. Making your average attackspeed :. dps higher. Which is ideal for gridning. (I'm thinking aoe grind with a healer and 30+ at level mobs most the time).

As far as avoidance goes though. A % of avoidence is a % of avoidance as far as a table is concerned. And unless dodge rating give more real dodge % chance then parry rating gives real parry % chance, which i dont think it does, then it makes sense to go parry for slightly higher dps and dodge for slightly higher mit.

I havent seen the numbers but thats how I would reason it.



EDIT

I check my armory and YUCK! How did I miss something as important as this? I knew people prefered Dodge but i don't think I ever read that that math just gimped parry rating outright. I just assumed it was because of the above based on what I've read.


126 dodge rating gives 6.66% chance to dodge. or 18.9 dodge rating for a %.

76 Parry rating gives 3.21% chance to parry. or 23.7 parry rating for a %.

Why would blizz even provide the option then? Who would ever gem a 10+ parry gem if this math holds liniarly.
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Postby Barathorn » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:59 am

Threatco wrote:It's my understanding that a raid tank takes dodge over parry because this happens.

Prince attacks.

Tank parrys.

Tank gets extra attack from parry.

Prince parrys. Gets 2 attacks in a row. Ouch!

So it makes sense not to be the best for near EH min MTing, as it is risky throwing faster melee atacks at boss as with reckoning because he will toss em back at you with parry/counter attack.

But you still are upping dps and tps by getting more parry/counter attacks yourself. Making your average attackspeed :. dps higher. Which is ideal for gridning. (I'm thinking aoe grind with a healer and 30+ at level mobs most the time).

As far as avoidance goes though. A % of avoidence is a % of avoidance as far as a table is concerned. And unless dodge rating give more real dodge % chance then parry rating gives real parry % chance, which i dont think it does, then it makes sense to go parry for slightly higher dps and dodge for slightly higher mit.

I havent seen the numbers but thats how I would reason it.


In principle your kinda correct. But the amount of parry 'rating' needed to give you 1% parry is the most of any defense stat. It is simply inefficient and you are better going for dodge or defense [and perhaps strength now?] which all need less 'rating' than parry to make a full %.

By gemming for parry you are using 'more' points to get less avoidance, this gimps all of your other defense and threat stats and actually hurts your overall ability as a tank.

I hope I explained that ok? You need to be looking at what you get for your buck as it were and maximising that. The reason parry is so expensive is because of the attack speed increase you recieve.

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Postby Barathorn » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:06 am

This is taken from the excellant guide in the other Gear forum.

Let's take a look at ratings and what they mean for us.

2.4 Defense Rating = 1 Defense = .04 Miss/Doge/Parry/Block

18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge

31.5 Parry Rating = 1% Parry

7.9 Block Rating = 1% Block

25 Agility = 1% Dodge

Assuming 1 Rating = 1 Item Point...

Until you reach 102.4%, Block Rating is the cheapest avoidance stat, followed by Defense, Dodge and Parry in that order.

Once you hit 102.4%, 1 Defense Rating gives you 0.05 pure avoidance, whereas 1 Dodge will give you 0.53. Parry is even worse, yielding 0.031 pure avoidance. For comparison 1 Agi = 0.04 avoidance.

At this point, extra Block is useless, so you should focus on Dodge, then Defense. Agility is worse than Defense, but better than Parry for Avoidance.


I hope that makes it clearer, my explanation wasn't great.

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Postby Threatco » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:07 am

Ok, so focus on dodge until your uncrushable. Then push the avoidance load onto the more the expensive parry as your gear grow.

That right?
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Postby ulushnar » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:08 am

Except the whole "31.5 Parry Rating to 1% Parry" was changed to about 24 Parry Rating for 1% Parry in about 2.1/2.2.
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Postby Digren » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:34 am

While it's sort-of a cop-out, I'm not going to open all those Thottbot links to check out your gear. Use Wowhead next time and I can just mouse over them.

Good luck!
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Postby Barathorn » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:38 am

Threatco wrote:Ok, so focus on dodge until your uncrushable. Then push the avoidance load onto the more the expensive parry as your gear grow.

That right?


Its every individuals choice, I favour a balanced approach and aim for 50% pure avoidance - dodge, parry and miss combined. Others like Worldie are avoidance freaks who aim for 35% dodge [and 60% pure avoidance] and get the other defensive abilities to cover the rest of the 102.4%[block cap]. It also depends on what progression level you are currently at, as your gear will dictate what is achievable.

At the moment, 102.4% can be reached easily pre raid at level 70, at level 80 to reach 102.4% will mean gimping another stat such as stamina too much so it does appear with WotLk that we will have a longer time building up to 102.4% with defense originally providing the majority of the block cap.

Hope that helps.

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Postby Barathorn » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:40 am

Ulushnar wrote:Except the whole "31.5 Parry Rating to 1% Parry" was changed to about 24 Parry Rating for 1% Parry in about 2.1/2.2.


Thanks Ulushnar, I didn't even spot that doh!

Even so, parry remains the most expensive defensive stat and as such is generally avoided as you can get better/cheaper avoidance elsewhere.

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Postby ulushnar » Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:58 am

Barathorn wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:Except the whole "31.5 Parry Rating to 1% Parry" was changed to about 24 Parry Rating for 1% Parry in about 2.1/2.2.


Thanks Ulushnar, I didn't even spot that doh!

Even so, parry remains the most expensive defensive stat and as such is generally avoided as you can get better/cheaper avoidance elsewhere.


Initially yes. With Diminishing returns though, I think there's a point where it becomes "cheaper" to start stacking parry rating over dodge rating. That's only after you've stacked a fair chunk of dodge though.

It's worth hanging onto items with Parry Rating if you get em, especially since they're likely to be a lot more common at level 80. Death Knights like Parry, so we're going to see more of it on shared items.
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Postby Threatco » Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:06 am

At the moment, 102.4% can be reached easily pre raid at level 70,


Im in mostly za/kara/badge gear. And im flirting with 97-98% block+dodge+parry+ (holy shield + Badge Libram). does the 102.4% include the latent miss chance? Am I allready block capped at 98% without?
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Postby Threatco » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:04 am

Quick bump. I tried search function but i couldent find it.

Am I considered uncrushable/blockcapped?

My block% with Holy Shield up is 57.06.
My dodge% is 23.41
My parry% is 18.05

That's 98.52%

I think I can add a 5% miss to that table to put me over the 102.4 but im not sure. Can anyone confirm this tanking 101 question for me?
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Postby majiben » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:28 am

Miss comes from two places: Defense rating and innate miss.

The innate miss for any mob is 5% (rare exceptions apply). This does not show up in character sheets.

Defense from defense rating is show in the character sheet when you mouse over your defense skill. At 490 defense you will have 5.6% chance to be missed.

A tank with exactly 490 defense will have a 10.6% chance of any swing missing them.
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Postby Threatco » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:43 am

Hmm... So defence helps become uncrushable 4 ways. Adding to Block/Parry/Dodge/Miss chance directly. I didnt notice the miss part, I thought it only said crit hits. but it is specific it covers normal hits and crit hits.

So am I way beyond block cap? Am I wasting gem slots with avoidance?

My block% with Holy Shield up is 57.06.
My dodge% is 23.41
My parry% is 18.05
My miss% is 5.00% + 6.08% (502 DEF)

That's 109.6% chance For one of those 4 things to happen.

Wow... Overkill much? For someone who hit 70 less then a month ago I raced passed that line without even knowing it.

question: Am I right??
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Postby xstrykr » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:50 am

Threatco wrote:Hmm... So defence helps become uncrushable 4 ways. Adding to Block/Parry/Dodge/Miss chance directly. I didnt notice the miss part, I thought it only said crit hits. but it is specific it covers normal hits and crit hits.

So am I way beyond block cap? Am I wasting gem slots with avoidance?

My block% with Holy Shield up is 57.06.
My dodge% is 23.41
My parry% is 18.05
My miss% is 5.00% + 6.08% (502 DEF)

That's 109.6% chance For one of those 4 things to happen.

Wow... Overkill much? For someone who hit 70 less then a month ago I raced passed that line without even knowing it.

question: Am I right??


Are you wearing the Libram of Repentance to get your block up that high? If you are then you can forego using it. At that point, you might as well use whatever other librams you have.

If you have them, these are good choices to use:
Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude
Libram of Eternal rest
Tome of the Lightbringer - This might be out of your reach as it drops in BT
Libram of Avengement
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Postby Threatco » Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:20 am

So is

(dodge%) + (parry%) + (block %) + (defence chance to miss) + (5%) = 102.4% the goal?

Or am I supposed to take that 5% out? And the goal with it is really 107.4%?

Yes I am using the libram. So I will probably start shopping for the conc one. For MH weapon its the parry rating axe off zul'jin. Any idea what would be good for more raw stamina on a weapon and hopefully + or better dps?
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