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Why cant we be color blind?

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Why cant we be color blind?

Postby Gabrion » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:13 am

Ok so this is half rant post, half looking for serious opinions.

I've run kara a zillion times on my lock, and only these past few weeks have been OT on my tankadin. Before I get too far, here's my armory link:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... n=Deathart

I think I logged out with everything but my flask on buffs wise (unbuffed I'm still at 13.1k HP).

My complaint is that I'm pretty much not allowed to tank anything in kara. I mean on multi-mob trash pulls I tank 1 target if I'm lucky, and on boss fights it's even worse - I pretty much throw on healing gear for most of them.

Now the real reason this upsets me is because the argument I usually get is that I cant really tank because I'm "still wearing greens and blues." IIRC my only green is my shoulders and ring, which for green items are actually nice (I can change the ring for something like andormu's tear, but since I'm uncrush alredy I prefer the stam). I've run bot a bunch for the righteous shoulders but pretty much given up...they aren't that much better (although I would like 2 piece). And ya, the rest of my gear is blue, but so what?

I mean my thing is why does the color of items matter more than what they actually do? No one seems to care that buffed up I'm at 17.5k HP with 45% pure avoidance and of course uncrushable/uncritable. Given all that in kara (and the fact that I know the instance well), who the fuck cares if I'm wearing grey stuff?

That's the end of the rant...but for anyone who actually looked at my armory, I'm also open to any suggestions. I'm fully aware I have A LOT of upgrading to do (most of this is all pre-raid gear....I cant count how many ppl laugh at me for that shield for instance), so all recommendations welcome.
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Postby guillex » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:18 am

Actually, your upgrades are going to come from Kara or Heroics... So I'd start stealing bosses from whoever's the tank when you're running KZ.

Honestly, I'd ask for one shot to MT.

If you can't even get that, it might be time to look for a new guild. I bet you dollars to doughnuts that if you get a chance, you'll probably blow your regular MT out of the water in terms of threat.

You can't do much if you're not allowed to try.
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Postby Gabrion » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:30 am

Guillex wrote:
You can't do much if you're not allowed to try.


And this is mostly how I feel. I mean it's not like I haven't shown that I'm competent either. I run heroics, etc. Even a good example from kara...every time I'm in there someone makes a comment about how many ppl are going to die at the ushers before opera (I've certainly seen this a few time when the MT gets iced and the OT hasn't built enough threat). Every time I've been in there though, no one has died. JoR + SoR + Exorcism + Cons = none of the DPS or heals can think about being second threat.

Oh well at this point I guess it's just me whining and probably a bit early since I've not pushed the envelope at all and I've only been in there a few weeks with these guys. I'm sure they will give me plenty of chances, but back to the title of the thread, the reasoning behind my status is what's especially troubling. Some people in this game put too much emphasis on the color purple IMO.
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Postby Sideout » Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:52 am

I MT kara solo all of the time on my pally. Run with 2 healers and 7 DPS - makes for a fast run.

Some of the trash give you issues but other than that - kara is a pally tank dream as it has ton of undead so your holy spells work great.

I even found it a bit easier to tank Nightbane on the pally than on my warrior as using a fear ward rotation and the BG trinket prevented fear for the most part and I could also just tank the adds on the air phases.

If they wont let you MT it , look for a PUG group. Good luck .
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Postby Aerfalle » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:15 pm

I see your point, but you're in greens and blues. Don't you see their point? It's not that you're undergeared, it's not that you couldn't do it... but why not collect badges and upgrade your gear while someone with better gear tanks?

What's so wrong with that?

You've got a spot in a run to get upgrades... if what you want is to be tanking... tell them that, not us. :)
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Postby Gabrion » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:32 pm

Aerfalle wrote:I see your point, but you're in greens and blues. Don't you see their point? It's not that you're undergeared, it's not that you couldn't do it... but why not collect badges and upgrade your gear while someone with better gear tanks?


No I don't see it because they either don't have a point or it doesn't make sense. The idea that all greens are worse than all blues are worse than all purples is just flawed. This hasn't effected me before, but now that I've seen it in a raid I'm just pointing out how silly it is.

As I stated already I'm sure I'll be given chances the more I prove myself and ask for opportunities. What I'm posting about here is the inherently flawed mindset of color-coded skill evaluation. If I replaced my greens with blues that were worse, or my blues with purples that were worse, I would still be looked at as "better" by ppl who do gear inspection buy just scanning the colors.
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Postby Aerfalle » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:44 pm

Oh, please.

I carry about 30 pieces of gear. 4 or 5 of them are blues. They're good, I swap them in when needed, and I don't give a **** that they're blue, because there's no epic replacement or equivalent (BR trinket, Arc ring, Devilshark, etc). There is not a single piece of green gear, though. If there was, it wouldn't be an issue, but the truth is... epic tank gear is better. That's why most tanks wear it.

My lock, for example, has blessings deck, badge trinket, shrunken head and quag's eye (a blue). Most of the time I'm using that blue (essentially anytime I am not in a boss fight). People ask me why I use it all the time (because it's better), but I don't even have another blue in my bank because there aren't any other useful ones.

Doesn't mean blues can't tank. Doesn't mean you couldn't tank, course you could. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have a shot. But face facts, your gear is not as good as another tank option. Maybe you would be better in your current gear because you're amazing or a better player. I don't know.

Your posts just come across like you have a sense of entitlement to MT. Ask for a shot, ask why they're not letting you... surely you could tank a run. But it's not like you deserve to be MT just cause you say color of gear doesn't matter.
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Postby Xfighter » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:12 pm

My major question is:

Can you provide a link to the person who's typically chosen as a MT over you?

I'll just go on gut instinct, I'm willing to bet that they have better gear than you and he\she has been with the guild longer than you so has more trust from the guild members.

Be happy you don't MT, as for a pally OTing kara is a joke, and you can afk half the time yet still get free loot, so why complain?
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Postby Spectrum » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:37 pm

It can be tough sometimes to explain how a blue or green is better than an epic, and it does happen. For example the Fel Steel Gauntlets have more EH than the T4 gauntlets, and there's a green quest-reward bracer for rogues which is better than the epic one that drops off Maiden (or so they debate).

I guess the question is not whether you can do it but whether you can do it better than the MT. If not you should just keep working on your gear.

And I wouldn't just start stealing mobs. That will just get people annoyed because everyone seems to prefer when things go according to plan. When you can really shine is when something unexpected happens and you can pick it up, e.g. an accidental over-pull or a sudden MT death.
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Postby Gabrion » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:30 pm

Aerfalle wrote:Maybe you would be better in your current gear because you're amazing or a better player. I don't know.


I dont remember making any snarky comments in my posts so far...I don't see why you feel the need to.

But it's not like you deserve to be MT just cause you say color of gear doesn't matter.


I guess the only thing I can ask you to do is re-read. I never implied that I am entitled to MT. I was making a point about a silly trend I see with ppl.

xfighter wrote:My major question is:

Can you provide a link to the person who's typically chosen as a MT over you?

I'll just go on gut instinct, I'm willing to bet that they have better gear than you and he\she has been with the guild longer than you so has more trust from the guild members.

Be happy you don't MT, as for a pally OTing kara is a joke, and you can afk half the time yet still get free loot, so why complain?


First time was with a guild warrior who was hands down better geared. Second time was a pug warrior who was far better geared who was replaced by a pug druid who was slightly better geared. I am in absolute agreement that following along and getting loot for doing almost nothing is great.

At the same time when we ponder what to do on a 5 pull because we only have one CC and the warrior doesnt want to tank 3 since DPS is putting out lots of threat - assuming the pally tank can't handle two cuz he has green shoulders is just dumb.
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Postby Barathorn » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:34 am

Doesn't sound like a color of gear issue to me, sounds like a confidence issue/issue that will cause friction within the guild, that they are avoiding bringing up with you and using your gear as an excuse.

However, have you considered that the guild MT might still need drops? Or that he/she might need badges, and because he/she has put in the hours your R/L is happy to let them continue to MT? If they are better geared than you then unless you can convince your guild to adopt a rota policy you are unlikely to get a chance to MT.

Either way I think that a calm rational chat with your raid leader is your best option. I fail to see why a tank with 45% avoidance and 17.5k health wouldn't be considered as the MT, but I have a gut feeling there is history here that you are either not privy to, or are not telling us.

Barathorn

Edit - After looking at your armory, there are a number of things you could do to improve yourself but I understand that the upgrades would be mostly enchants on blue gear and as such almost a waste as you are hoping to upgrade. You also don't appear to have the 13.1k health or 45% avoidance you previously stated? Have you changed your gear?
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Postby Discus » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:11 am

I had this problem for ages - I used to refer guildies to gear threads here to explain that stats>colour - especially as most epics these days are welfare and no use to a tankadin. It's just quicker for lazy people to quickly count your number of epics rather than think.

For this reason PUGs were complete waste of time while I was still wearing greens. Any wipe, whoevers fault, and it'd be "the noob palatank in greens" fault.

My solution - Buy/craft all the available epic BOEs (helm, bracers, boots) when in PUGs swap a rubbish blue into your green slots (usually shouders) and then swap back when play starts :roll:

It's funny, now I'm mostly purple I rarely get blamed for wipes, even when its my fault.
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Re: Why cant we be color blind?

Postby wawel » Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:50 am

Gabrion wrote:I mean my thing is why does the color of items matter more than what they actually do? No one seems to care that buffed up I'm at 17.5k HP with 45% pure avoidance and of course uncrushable/uncritable. Given all that in kara (and the fact that I know the instance well), who the fuck cares if I'm wearing grey stuff?


You are worst geared tank in guild. That is fact, so its hard to keep you alive durning boss fights. Your healers... ;) I am ot saying it to trash you or anyting like that, but it may be hard for you to MT kara.

If it is about items ( as for me ) if you are at last full blue or epic that means you played WoW longer ( if not WoW then your class ) and you know it better so you will tank better so you are more experienced/skilled. As for blue/purple gear: use what is better, but i know no green that is better than epic ( does not apply to blue stuff ).

Xfighter wrote:My major question is:

Can you provide a link to the person who's typically chosen as a MT over you?

If i was GL/RL i would get:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &n=Grizzly
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... t&n=Selvex
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... t&n=Shawky
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... ght&n=Warl

If you feel bad with OT'ing try PuG but i can bet that you will not be allowed to MT.

And if it is about MT/OT and all stuff: you are part of the grp ( 5/10/25 ) and you your duty is to fill one of the heal/dps/tank spots AND it is normal for me that better geared ppl are designed to do harder job so guy with good stats MT/MT heal ( i am saying about stats not gear ). If there is 15khp guy with 22 dode there is no reason to ask him to OT and take bad geared guy over him. Skills > gear but sometimes you can just die after 2 hits so you can be skilled but dead.


IMO best reply here:

Spectrum wrote:And I wouldn't just start stealing mobs. That will just get people annoyed because everyone seems to prefer when things go according to plan. When you can really shine is when something unexpected happens and you can pick it up, e.g. an accidental over-pull or a sudden MT death.


do your best and show in worst moment that you can save grp in the hardest moments so they will trust in your skills and will ask you to do more and more.
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Postby Gabrion » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:08 am

Just to clarify one more time

1) There is no inner guild drama I'm hiding here - confidence issues maybe, but I don't know what to do about that since I tank heroics every night for these people without problems.

2) Yes every MT in my guild is better geared than me. No, they have not come to the Kara runs I've been in. I pointed this out several times - the MT spot was pugged. Yes the people we filled with were better geared.

3) No I don't have a problem being OT - I have a problem with an attitude of me not really being able to do anything useful because "I'm still wearing greens."

4) I have never once considered using a "competing tanks" method to solve this problem (for instance stealing mobs and what not). I'm a team player and I don't mind following along afk while getting free epics (although the latter hasn't been happening, but I'm sure it will soon).

5) This was not a post about my guild specifically. For those of you taking it as another "should I /gquit because so-and-so did such-and-such in my guild', I apologize for the confusion. The guild itself just formed 3 weeks ago so we are obviously still working things out and getting comfortable with each other.

Once again, the point was that numbers are more important than colors. when I buff up in kara to get 17.5k HP with over 45% pure avoidance and obviously uncrush when needed, there is no reason to be overly concerned about green shoulders or ring.

Let me give another example...tank goes afk right after killing attumen. I say no biggy I can pull all the trash up to moroes. RL says we better wait for the the MT. So we wait 10 minutes.

But once again, this is not specifically a complaint about the guild or even that kara run. I get comments from people in heroics as well. The point being made is still just that I find it a little bit silly to worry about gear color (or item level requirements) when the gear in question provides the stats to do the job in question. Sorry I didn't make the point more clear in the OP...
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Postby Doogiehowser » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:55 am

Gabrion

Why not ask to MT the lower bosses and the trash that leads up to it? To me, that seems like a decent compromise I'm not seeing where you are deficient in any manner that you couldn't MT some bosses, if not all.

I have no basis on go on since I'm still leveling my own prot pally, but looking at some of the success stories, you are easily geared for some/most of Kara.

Be gracious about it.

Try to round up a PuG on your own time and see how far you can go if they aren't willing to give you the shot. Grad a couple healers and start spamming for DPS on Kara. There are lots of people out there that are still looking to do Kara. Ignore the people that are pushing you down. You've got nothing to lose to strike off on your own time and test your abilities (except a repair bill :wink: )
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