haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:45 pm

Tank gearing for survivability stopped being as much of a key factor in raid success with the switch to active mitigation and the gradual move to making fights hard through mechanics and not raw damage numbers. If a tank dies these days it's more often a screwup by tanks or dps taking too much damage and distracting the healers.
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Brokenone » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:54 pm

Fenrìr wrote:I have a problem with people who appear to only care about themselves and can't seem to grasp the concept that people care about their fellow guildmates and it's a far cry from me having a different opinion from you...it's the overly accepted view of almost every tank here. Sure, there are those people who care about tank dps...AFTER DPS's dps. Because again, we're back to the point of a tank can do their job in suboptimal gear as has been the case since what...T12? T11?.

Yes...you can do your job better with better gear...but so can a DPS and so can a healer. If you took offense or thought anything I said was a personal attack against you, then it must be true. But everything I said, can easily be applied to any single elitist tank who thinks that their dps is the sole reason for gear justification and while I did say 'you' quite a bit, it was not necessarily directed at you, even though you and I are having this conversation.

A tank getting gear over a DPS sort of stopped as Cata progressed. Sure, there was a time in which tanks and healers were the top two priorities on gear for tier pieces. Your main tank got geared out first over your off tank and your healers got the tier over the dps after the tanks because that was the time that gear did matter for a tank and you did not progress if you did not have a geared tank to stand up there and get beat on. I played a dps in Vanilla and TBC and got passed over for loot a lot. Then I swapped to tanking and now I still get passed over for loot but I don't really care. Since Cata, that has no longer been the case and I'm sorry if you're still stuck in that mind set. It took me a while as well to accept that DPS need to be able to do their job in order for us to meet enrage timers in order for me to play this game as I intend...to raid end game content. If your guild still has that Vanilla/TBC mentality, then gratz, you got a very rare guild.

Haste, as has been pointed out, does not increase survivability: it helps smooth out the heavy damage intake for slightly advanced tanks that can plan out and properly gauge holy power generation between threatening tank death boss abilities. If you want the math/theory on that, Theck has several very in-depth blog posts on it over at http://www.sacredduty.com. There is always a reason to have dodge/parry. An avoided attack is damage not taken, no matter how you want to look at it, that's survivability which is your number one reason for haste. As far as crit being the lowest stat to care about, I disagree. If you care about your DPS, then it should be higher than dodge/parry because it increases damage done.

Yes, I do tank in a 10 man environment, but there is very little difference between 10 and 25 man raiding. Sure, some fights are easier on the other difficulty and others are harder. I'm sorry if you think that a 10 man guild is not a real guild because you may think they have it easier. It's not any easier and in some ways, I find it difficult when people don't have a raid ready alt to try to help make some mechanic easier (such as having multiple warlocks for Helm of Command on Lei Shen for their gateways). Sure, any fight can be done with any raid comp, but some times, having multiples of a class just makes some things easier.

Yes, raid dps will go up if an equal gear ilvl is replaced between a tank or a dps...but well more often than not...the overall raid dps will go up if the DPS gets it over the tank because again, we're back to that new continuum of a tank can just just fine in suboptimal gear. And if you're on Lei Shen heroic, you should know this already.

Yes, I'm not denying that tank dps can be very good. Our BM destroyed everyone on Ra-den, more than doubling the number two dps. But the fact of the matter is, your way of thinking is a very rare thought in this day and age of raiding (speaking in terms of tanks getting gear over any one else first). As I have already stated, there was a time that was true, but it's not any longer.

I'm going to stop with this post and line of talking as this is a bit detrimental to the OP's question. It has been answered in 10:1 odds of 'let the dps get it first because it's overall better for the raid group' over the other arguments, and is quite well documented in that sense.

Your logic makes no sense. Sorry. No matter how many times you say "a tank can do their job in suboptimal gear" it still doesn't help your argument. ANYONE can do their job in suboptimal gear. I didn't say 10 man raiding was invalid in any way. My only reason for referencing 10 man vs 25 man is because I'm going to have more Vengeance than you on pretty much every fight (since the bosses hit harder). So maybe in your raid, you don't do as much/more damage than the DPS. But I do because I have a good roughly 100k vengeance on you.

It's really quite simple. The point of gear is to:

A) increase survivability
B) increase DPS

1) As long as a DPS has enough stamina to comfortably survive the things they can't avoid, that's pretty much irrelevant for them
2) As a Prot Paladin gets more haste he has a much smoother damage curve, which drastically increases his survivability. In addition, all the damage they do is converted partially to healing, which provides a (at times substantial) raid survivability increase

1) Since haste scales roughly linearly, the person who does the most damage on a given fight will gain more damage for an equivalent upgrade than someone who does less damage
2) A Prot Paladin main tank on 25 man heroics does as much or more damage on all fights. There is not a single fight this tier where I end up at the bottom of the DPS charts, and many which I end up well ahead at the top. You can call these gimmicks, cheesing, or whatever you wish...but the fact of the matter is they get the boss/adds down faster and in some cases can trivialize DPS checks that would otherwise be much more tough.

And for the record...If we assume that spikes kill tanks and not total damage over the course of the entire fight (which we all assume otherwise Haste would be awful in the first place)... Haste DRASTICALLY increases survivability. Dodge/Parry are awful for this metric. Haste also makes Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield much MUCH stronger. There is literally no reason to have Dodge/Parry rather than Haste/Mastery/Hit/Expertise on your gear. The latter are better in every way that matters. If you could get rid of all your dodge and parry you should.

Saying you'd unilaterally give haste gear to DPS over Prot Paladins is akin to saying you'd give a 100k DPS guy a loot piece over your 200k DPS guy who both currently have the same item in that slot. It just doesn't make any sense.
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Thels » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:17 pm

Puredarkness wrote:Our guild is currently only raiding ToT normal as we are not a hard core guild.

Brokenone wrote:I raid 25 Heroics

That alone makes your advise useless, Brokenone. Take your fellow guildies, and go 10 man normal instead of 25 man heroic. See if you can still outDPS them.

Secondly, that you're doing more damage, does not automatically mean that giving the item to you will mean you'll do more extra damage than giving the item to a DPS. In a 25 man heroic guild vengeance alone defines that you will be competitive on DPS without so much as breaking a sweat.

Thirdly, even if your damage would increase the most from it, it doesn't mean that efficient damage would increase the most from it. As a tank, you're often attacking mobs that don't have any priority, just to keep threat on them, or keep your active mitigation up. DPS will (or at least should) always attack the targets that need to be burned down, so their DPS is more efficient than that of the tank.
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Meyrinn » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:51 pm

Being top in DPS in 25H as a tank isn't skill. Having 500K AP sort of makes that easy. However, giving gear haste gear to DPS over a Prot Pal is a bit silly. So would giving haste gear to the Prot Pal over DPS. Both equally need it. Tanks however can get tank itemized gear easy. Either way, If its loot council, I'd say give it to the better player first (This is not always the tank, I've seen some poor tanks in high end guilds). If its DKP or some sort of bidding system then they both should have equal rights (The tank will generally be ahead here due to less competition on some slots).

However, Saying haste scales linearly so whoever does more damage will add more raid dps is a bit short sighted. A couple reasons would be:

1) Tank has to disengage that target sometimes.
2) Tank swaps - if you go full bore the whole time, you're going to overthreat your cotank regardless of skill.
3) Timing of ShotR - If you're spamming ShotR every 3 HoPo, you're doing it wrong and hurting your raid.
4) Not All Abilities are effected by haste.
5) Buffs or Dots - Example: Ret Pal - Enough Haste will allow more abilities to be cast before having to refresh Inquisition. Hence, they will get more than a linear gain when haste breaks the point to allow them to get an extra ability in before refreshing. Not much Prot Pals do that would benefit in a similar way.
6) The other stat on the item - All the stats on a DPS item will increase DPS for a DPS class. We don't do more DPS from Mastery. We also need to push Expertise past soft cap and some of our abilities don't need it and therefore scales weaker past soft cap.
7) Higher iLvl = more Strength - We scale like shit with Strength due to high AP from Vengeance. The extra Str and Socket Bonuses on higher iLvl Gear will do FAR more for a DPS then us.
8) Fights with many adds Dodge/Parry probably does more for us than haste as we are not prone to spikes from many little hits.

If the item had haste and only haste, then yeah it would probably hold true that the higher damage prot would benefit more from it than the lower damage Ret.

Another thing to think about is that higher ilvl gear is needed on DPS on some cases. Some abilities are very well tuned for Health required to live through mechanics as DPS. Things like Ionization, or Dire Call can easily gibb a DPS without enough Stamina. Tanks will always live through these. There are plenty of these things where the extra health from ilvls makes a big difference in DPS living through some stuff, and dead DPS do NO DPS.
Last edited by Meyrinn on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Meyrinn » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:08 pm

Oh and while Dodge and Parry have little to no value to us, there are cases where it can be worth a bit.

Try bat tanking. GC generated 62 extra Holy Power for me on that fight, which was almost as much at HotR did.
Ji Kun Quills can be dodged and proc GC.
No Amount of Haste will save you from a Berzerked melee swing on that .5% wipe, but a lucky Dodge/Parry will buy the ENTIRE RAID's DPS another second or 2 on the boss. Yes, this shit happens on first kills. 1% extra DPS for you, or 2 seconds extra DPS for the ENTIRE RAID.

And seriously, you can live with that Dodge/Parry Gear as long as you have enough health for a spike.

As for history of tanks being given tier first, that was for tier bonuses that were enough to make a difference. Also in the past tanks needed stamina to deal with bosses hitting for 70% of our health a swing.

Also, I've taken some items before the DPS, but usually I let the better Plate DPS take them (Yes, I ganked the first Heroic TF Spark of Zandalar). On top of that only Ret Pals and Frost DKs like haste items anyways.
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Puredarkness » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:25 am

hello again guys and THANK THANK YOU ALL VERY MUCH for ur input and advise.
i asked some very specific and some general questions but i feel this thread has been derailed somewhat by certain ppl, while debating things is perfectly normal, name calling and sarcasm are uncalled for, plz keep control and try not to reduce urself to childish lvl when posting.
ty all again for ur replies i only wish my guild would look at this thread and maybe try to understand my point of view
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Fetzie » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:21 pm

2) Tank swaps - if you go full bore the whole time, you're going to overthreat your cotank regardless of skill.

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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby lifeonmars » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:23 am

Going back to the OP's raid situation and the apparent policy being pushed in it, frankly if a guild right now is still working on normal modes, gear cannot possibly be the limiting factor in the raid's success anymore for any role. The marginal improvement by giving a haste/mastery/hit/exp piece to a dps DK over a tank is not remotely as important as the "learn to play" issues going on. Unless the raid has literally just started after a long hiatus, there is no way between normal mode drops, valor, LFR, and heroic scenarios that anyone is not at a sufficient gear level to realistically clear normal mode, so the biggest bang for buck in terms of performance is really tightening up and improving rotations and awareness. Nobody in your raid is being throttled by your wanting haste gear as a prot paladin.
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Koatanga » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:23 pm

Meyrinn wrote:2) Tank swaps - if you go full bore the whole time, you're going to overthreat your cotank regardless of skill.

You clearly don't share tanking duties with a Monk.
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Killshield » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:06 am

So what's the verdict on Haste vs Mastery vs Avoidance for 5.4 with the change to GC?
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Re: haste vs avoidance t14 and beyond

Postby Thels » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:24 am

We still want Haste first, Mastery second.

The Avoidance that we get on Tier pieces and the cloak just has gotten a little more useful, is all...
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