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Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:17 am
by JoeBravo
Worldie wrote:More or less just "ignore" ToF. I dont do anything special when it's on, I don't even track it. The loss of 2 GCDs which you could use on flay / spike depending on situation is generally not worth the damage gain on the 2 dots.
Also, if you time Halo properly (like, after a add explosion) it will heal people under 15% hp proccing ToF.

Remember that VT and SWP are no longer the biggest part of our DPS. Your top 3 damagers should be DP MB MF


It's not total damage percentage that counts, but damage per execution time. for an elemental shaman a searing totem is ~3% of total damage, but it's the most damage I can do in 1 gcd (as long as it runs it's full duration)

I miss the DrDamage addon for this kind of stuff :(

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:48 am
by Worldie
Just a view:

Image

Dots are less damage per cast than DP, MB and procced MS. Easy to math out. That's why you cast them only when every other skill has been cast.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:57 am
by Levantine
ITT: Worldie doesn't understand the concept of DPET

SWP and VT are both higher DPET than all nukes. The reason Mind Blast is a higher priority than dots is because of DP, not because it does a particularly impressive amount of damage.

I know this because I'm looking at simcraft results of both BIS heroic t14 and Schatze. Both say the opposite of what you're saying and suddenly the reason you constantly whine about doing poor single target dps is totally clear.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:58 am
by Worldie
No i totally dont know what DPET means :o

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:04 am
by Levantine
Image
Image

DPET.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:13 am
by Worldie
Wait... "damage per execute time" doesn't mean "damage done while in execute range"? °_°

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:16 am
by JoeBravo
must. not. laugh...



I fail :'(

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:25 am
by Worldie
So anyone explains me now why all the most common theorycraft sites all propose different theoryes and different talent choices?

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:31 am
by JoeBravo
Worldie wrote:So anyone explains me now why all the most common theorycraft sites all propose different theoryes and different talent choices?


because not all common theorycraft sites are actually theorycrafting sites?
But I'm just following Binkensteins judgement on this. (he does the elemental shaman math. + most of the MoP healing haste breakpoint cards that you see around are his)

on that matter:
Binkenstein about caster dps haste: http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=71

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:44 am
by Worldie
Well I really dont know which site to craft, I suppose How2Priest should be the most reliable nowadays since it "rises from the ashes of shadowpriest.com"

In which case, he does propose all damage spells before DoTs in the priority list.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:49 am
by JoeBravo
Worldie wrote:Well I really dont know which site to craft, I suppose How2Priest should be the most reliable nowadays since it "rises from the ashes of shadowpriest.com"

In which case, he does propose all damage spells before DoTs in the priority list.


checking this is simple: does he back it up with math and pretty graphs? :P

and even then, the graphs lev posted tell you all you need to know: go from top to bottom.

Anything that makes sure you can the highest one faster, can make it move up in priority though. That's where the math comes in.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:52 am
by alayire
Levantine wrote:Image
Image

DPET.

Ahem.
In the case of recasting dots, before they actually expire doesn't that make DPET go down? Since you are actually cutting into the existing dots damage.
Since that's what I was asking here, is there any value to recasting my dots with ToF up for the damage increase?

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:58 am
by JoeBravo
alayire wrote:
Levantine wrote: [pictures]
DPET.

Ahem.
In the case of recasting dots, before they actually expire doesn't that make DPET go down? Since you are actually cutting into the existing dots damage.
Since that's what I was asking here, is there any value to recasting my dots with ToF up for the damage increase?

you are right, it does
really depends on how much the total damage gain (on full duration) versus the damage lost by cutting it short is.

My best guess is finding out who helped on the simcraft spriest functions and what guide(s)he helped writing and use that.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:14 am
by Worldie
As far as math goes I believe it has been proved that, due to the Cata+ dot mechanic (dots continuing to tick if refreshed rather than having the tick timer resetted) the best moment to renew a dot is right before the last tick. Iirc it was something like 1.5 sec for VT and 0.5 for SWP

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:28 am
by Nooska
I have to add that my favorite method of killing stuff os to land in the middle and use fear - tags everything and gives me several seconds to dot it up and apply my shield before I start killing for real. (Psyfiend helps a lot with that as well).

DS does have 24 yard range - I guess it may also have to do with it being similar to Glaive Throw which I am very used to as a hunter.

Edit: and that I missed about 3 pages worth of posts in replying.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:24 pm
by halabar
So I finally got my first piece of LFR tier last night (along with a few other upgrades, it was a good night), and after gemming and whatnot I was checking Mr Robot this morning, and was looking at other upgrades and...

Mr Robot is showing that getting another piece of tier is a ~22,000 point upgrade in their system. (Currently I'm at ~124k points in their system).

Is the 2-pc bonus that strong? I figured it was at least worth stepping down from a 489 to a 483 to make a set, but that number is huge.

Thoughts?

(Mindburn on Terenas US)

(and yeah, still need to reforge... was waiting until I finish all my LFRs as there's a few options where I still could get upgrades).

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:32 am
by Skye1013
If it's a choice between MB or VT/SWP, then you'd do MB, then pop VT/SWP on the next gcd. You don't just sit around with VT/SWP not on the target because MB/MS/DP are higher damage. Especially if you're running DI/FDCL, because then you suddenly don't have a source for procs (meaning fewer MB/MS and as a result, fewer DP.)

If we were seriously putting all damage spells over dots... then we'd never cast dots and our rotation would be something along the lines of MS-MS-MS-MB, DP at 3 orbs.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:21 am
by Worldie
It was pretty obvious MS was put over dots only with FDCL proc ;)

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:59 am
by Nooska
So, what you are saying is that my firts notation;
^VT>^SW:P>DP3>MB*>MS*>MB>MF
is correct (*=instant, DI, FDCL and 2xMS respectively) - with the L90 in there dependant on what you used - for DS, in between MB and MF.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:16 am
by alayire
ahem, Nooska i don't think so.
DP3 has the largest DPET as you can see from Levies post. which sort of translates into 2 things:
since MB has a cooldown and besides execution phase is the only way to get orbs, MB should be put on cooldown as soon as it's up. with one exception, when you have 3 orbs.
this cuts into the second thing, DP3 should be put on cooldown as soon as it's up, because you run the chance of proccing MB if you don't. You could delay it one or more GCDs but you would then run into issues with MB if you proc too fast.

So that would mean DP3>MB>SWP>VT>*MS>MF excluding execution phase. looking at that DPET graph with best in slot that MIGHT change in the future.
I'm not exactly sure why Worldie would place MS proc over dots, unless you already have 2 charges meaning you could waste some charges. I'm always prioritising dots over MS, because once dots are up I have some gcds to do something else, but then again my dps is kind of low .. so what do I know :(

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:09 am
by Nooska
^VT and ^SW:P is "keep up" not necessarily cast first (though usually).
What I would say as an "opening" is MB, VT, SW:P, then back to the priority.
SW:P and VT are important for procs (FDCL, DI), and with DI, you have already removed the cooldown lock on MB, as you will be getting procs that reset the cooldown as well.
With MS glyph, instant MS x2 is 2 second delay, where MB is 1.5 seconds (adjusted for haste to benefit MB).

so yeah, I should c aveat my priority listing as "with FDCL, DI and glyph of MS"

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:35 am
by Rhiannon
alayire wrote:this cuts into the second thing, DP3 should be put on cooldown as soon as it's up, because you run the chance of proccing MB if you don't.


With the obvious exception being the case where your sw:p has fallen off. If sw:p is not on the boss, you are not able to get a mb proc, so if you have a dp3 and no sw:p on the boss and mb is on cd the correct thing to do is apply sw:p, then dp3. Obviously this situation is very rare, and more often than not a result of poor execution of priority earlier on, but if it does arise that is the correct response.

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:31 am
by Worldie
Hai guyse.

I r in need of help

Here's a sample log:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-tccklsg0nn7mem6s/

Now, my problems: Lei Shi and Tsulong. My DPS on both (normal and LFR) is pure garbage compared to what I can get done off other bosses of this tier (you can see I rank easily on Protectors and Sha).
I must be TOTALLY missing something cause despite how good I can play my DPS barely beats 60k on both fights. LF hints?

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:55 am
by Nooska
Won't that be because you don't get a lot of ticks on TsuLong adds in day phase, and on Lei-shi because you lose damage whenshe hides, when she shields and you don't get a lot of time on the adds when she shields.
("Go Away" shouldn't hurt you too bad, but does remove MF from the equation there)

Re: [5.0.5] Shadow Priest

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:21 am
by Worldie
For Lei Shi I got told of 2 special spots to stay where you can cast freely during GoAway without being pushed further, but I am already using them in that log.