Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:53 am

That really helps. I don't think we will be hitting heroic anytime soon but having an understanding of useful "bubble" periods is great. It certainly helps me in building a framework on useful times to use bubble or HoP and trying to analyze fight mechanics better on a class level.

Does Hand of Protection break Fiery Grip on Spine?

Also, that really is eye opening on the Divine Protection/Hand of Sacrifice transfer. Time to go buy a few more dusts to have in my bag.

One question about the Spirit Link totem comment. You say it saves a lot of health but how? Are you essentially removed the spirit link health transfer mechanism since you're immune so more heals are going to those that need it or are you included but your health is going up faster since you're immune from damage?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:58 pm

HoP and HoF don't break it. They might have during the first week or so (I've heard conflicting reports) but definately don't anymore. By the spirit link, I essentially mean that our raid strat often uses spirit links to immediately stabilize the entire raid's health (making healing almost 100% efficient) after a big spike like bolt or the last few seconds before Ultrax dies or Yorsahj yellow/red/black phases. By entering the spirit link with full health (due to the bubble) or not taking damage I'm not just helping myself... I'm helping stabilize the raid. You'll also, in our raids, see a lot of people use healthstones and stuff like LoH during critical spirit link times if the raid as a whole is very low to help spread that healing around. I know individually it isn't a lot, but we've had a ton of people saved from the instant death scenario of "Bolt explodes, corruption slaps 1/4 of the raid" because when that bolt exploded 7 or 8 people avoided the damage and spread their extra health around to the rest of the raid, allowing them to survive the slap.

Also, to save yourself some dusts... I just leave DP glyphed for the most part. I have two "guarenteed to save me" cooldowns for stop and have never needed both. If someone was doing serious progression H Morchok it might be worth it, but I'm not sure those two things even belong in the same sentence :)
Last edited by warden on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:06 pm

Thanks for the rundown. I'm sure I have more questions but they are a bit mundane so I'll save them for later and not clutter up this thread on seemingly Ret 101 stuff.

PS - How's the classy achievement coming along?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:13 pm

Don't worry about the questions--They're intelligent and good info to archive for any lost fellow protadins looking to sharpen up their offspec skills. I learned most of these tips and tricks from asking other pallies as well. Also, as you can tell, I can talk about Ret all day :)

On the achieve, not to derail the thread: Level 84 and 2500/6000 rep til honored, and I'm REALLY not looking forward to that last 3k rep (my 9th 85). After that we'll probably have to power level a dwarf rogue. One of our mages SoRed one from 32 to 80 so that'll be start.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:18 am

Fenrìr wrote:BIS weapons go

H Gurth > H ESS > H Warmaster weap > Normal Gurth > N ESS = H Sulf > Norm warmaster


Another quick question. Does Human racial change this in anyway? Or does the Mastery from H ESS outweigh the expertise gain from N Gurth/H Ataraxis regardless.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:34 am

So another question regarding spine if you don't mind.

What's the proper usage on GoAK on a tendon? I'm assuming you should pop it before the plate is blown off so you can begin to stack the strength buff but obviously you don't want to blow it too early. What do you use a queue to pop it? Do you wait until the Amalg is channeling his nuclear blast? A little before?

Also, I tend to feel uneasy about blowing my Inquisition too early so I tend to sit on 3 HoPo from 10% and less on the Amalg since I want a clean Inquisition when I run up and smack the tendon. I don't have 2 piece T13 yet on my paladin so maybe that will solve my issues and this is a moot point.

I know I'm wasting time by not downing the Amalg as fast as I can be since I'm preparing for the tendon; however, I don't want the raid to be overwhelmed by bloods either so it's a double edged sword it seems.

On another note, I've found on Yorshaj that I can close the gap on the blobs quicker if I perform a jump-spin-Judgement on Yorshaj (much like a jump shot on a hunter when kiting in PvP) after I'm sufficiently far enough away to gain the Long Arm of the Law sprint. I'm sure no one has troubles killing the blobs and I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of it but I becamse confident enough to tell our Demo Lock to just sit on the boss and nuke him as I could get more dps on the blob.
Last edited by Cogglamp on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:01 am

Judgement doesn't have a facing requirement so no need to worry about spinning. However if you want to get fancy you can use a focus judgement macro to make sure censure doesn't drop off Yor'Sahj. I wouldn't risk using it if there's any danger of not killing the ooze comfortably, but if you able to time it properly without risking the ooze hitting it's a small dps gain overall.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:19 am

Gab wrote:
Fenrìr wrote:BIS weapons go

H Gurth > H ESS > H Warmaster weap > Normal Gurth > N ESS = H Sulf > Norm warmaster


Another quick question. Does Human racial change this in anyway? Or does the Mastery from H ESS outweigh the expertise gain from N Gurth/H Ataraxis regardless.


The best answer I can give is to sim it, but IIRC it still falls ahead. It could vary though, depending on your own personal stat weights. The ones I used had it ahead by about 52 dps.

Cogg: Ok, so this is probably more information than you asked for, but it is the summary of a long email discussion between Anafielle and I when we were working on H Spine progression. All timings are applicable to normal as well.
Code: Select all
Timings to work with:
Inq: 36 Sec—note, it is fine if this falls off as the tendon uptime expires… we can afford the time without it after the tendon isn’t targetable.
GanK: 30 sec
Zeal/AoK/AW: 20 sec Rotting Skull (if used): 15 sec (this is important, as it isn’t 100% uptime)
Nuclear Blast: 5 sec cast
Tendon: 24 sec (I think the timer starts with the blast cast finishing Tendon Uptime: 19 sec (sometimes 18). Also note that sometimes I can’t cast for the last .5-1 second on the tendon.

Lets backwards plan here. The goal is all CDs falling off just as the tendon uptime finishes. That means cooldowns must get popped 3-4 seconds after the nuclear blast explosion… 1 second before the plate comes up is permissible. You don’t want to be popping them as the tendon is appearing… you’re already spamming TV at that point. Nuclear blast explodes, 2 GCDs as you’re running in, pop the CDs. The key is making sure we’re already sitting on 3HP… can’t afford to CS once to get that 3rd HP on the tendon. That means…

HP after Inq—You need 4 GCDs to get it, 5 is better. After Inq refresh (we’ll get to that in a minute), you CS, Judge, Filler, CS, and then are ready for CDs. I like having a blank GCD after that last CS before burning CDs, just for timing in case something goes wrong… like an add isn’t in range to CS immediately or whatnot. This takes 7.5 seconds (for 5 GCDs—in reality it’s a tad less since some of our abilities are on the spell GCD). 7.5 seconds before “active” is 4 seconds after nuclear blast… or 1 second into the cast. Lets also tack on the 1.5 sec GCD after the Inq refresh, which takes us back to .5 sec prior to the Nuclear blast refresh to start building our holy power to pop our CDs. This means, counting back, that at the start of our holy power building we need to have [19 sec (tendon uptime), 5 seconds (after blast, before tendon is up), 5.5 seconds (blast and padding)=29.5 sec) of Inq up prior to starting to build our holy power… Which brings us to…

Inq. What we’ve arrived at above is that the add needs to start casting Nuclear blast within 6.5 seconds of doing a 3HP Inq refresh, but before he starts casting blast. In practical application, we have a 6 second window. Once the add hits about 4-5% (or Shira calls to kill bloods), I sit on my holy power. I pop Inq with the add hits 9 stacks… This is a GREAT time marker for us, because once it hits 9, it starts AoEing… it MUST start casting blast within 3-4 seconds of this, or the raid will wipe from the aoe, making it perfect for our purposes. Also note that after the InQ is popped, don’t spend any more holy power… you’re building it and sitting on it for the CD pop. If you get a DP proc BEFORE blast starts casting, you can spend it (I use it to refresh InQ again when the time remaining on the DP is <1 sec, otherwise just try to hold it.. there’s nothing worth dpsing), and fill the extra time with DSing the bloods that are still up to refresh apparatus stacks until cooldown popping time.

Recap:
When the add hits 4-5%, start pooling HP as we kill bloods.
1-6 seconds before Nuclear Blast (when the add hits 9 stacks is ideal), refresh Inq with 3 HP After refresh and during blast cast, build and hold 3 hp.
Use empty space to keep apparatus stacks up and fish for DP procs.
Pop GanK as blast starts casting. Blast cast finishes, run in and pop CDs just before the tendon appears (while the plate is doing its post-blast wiggle).
????
Profit.

More thoughts, this time on Heroic tendon CD use (note this only applies to 25 man, as 10s can easily down a tendon in 1 burn whereas during early progression on this 25s struggled to do it in 2, and often had to do one in 3).
Code: Select all
(T=tendon, B=which burn on that tendon):
What I think is going to be most efficient:
T1B1: GanK, AW, Zeal
T1B2: Nothing.
roll
First Amalg: AW/Zeal
T2B1: Nothing
T2B2: Pot, AW, Zeal
roll
T3B1: Hero, GanK, AW/Zeal
T3B2: kill
This got us 1 more cd uses of the course of the fight while still getting a full burn on each tendon and a more optimal one on T3 when we lose one dps (kitty) to be the 3rd tank. It also helped us move the Amalg along a bit faster, shortening the overall fight.
Last edited by warden on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:41 am

warden wrote:The best answer I can give is to sim it, but IIRC it still falls ahead. It could vary though, depending on your own personal stat weights. The ones I used had it ahead by about 52 dps.


Just curious, do you use Redcape's weights or custom weights?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:50 am

Custom weights from Simcraft, customized to my own gear and raid buffs and 200-500k sims depending on how much time I have.

Above post edited with spine info, yay for code tags!
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:19 am

main things I am hearing is clcret or clcinfo are very helpful. Understand best places to use your cooldowns on each fight.

Someone told me to just que in lfr as dps, and farm while I wait (switching to JC so need lots of ores), which will allow me to practice. Since I have pretty decent gear already, I should be able to pull some decent dps even as I am learning.

Will come back with more questions shortly I am sure :)

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:40 am

Nope, that's exactly what I'd hope you'd write up. I love the detail. It sounds like I was a little too conservative with my HP but that could be better solved when I get 2pc T13 for extra HP generation.

So for spine do you save Divine Shield for when you need to make DWing roll and you stand in the fire pools, when you get the Fiery Grip debuff, or maybe stand closer to the plate while the Amalg finishes his nuclear blast? I would guess that it depends on how the fight is going for you so maybe all three are possibilities?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:48 am

I save it for breaking grip via bubble/cancel if I get gripped during a tendon burn or gripped in a blast about to go off.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:22 pm

Cogglamp wrote:On another note, I've found on Yorshaj that I can close the gap on the blobs quicker if I perform a jump-spin-Judgement on Yorshaj... to gain the Long Arm of the Law sprint.

Judgement doesn't have a facing requirement. :) Then again, that might also let you get an exo in the same way, which DOES reqire facing.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Xfighter » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:44 pm

I'm an offspec ret for some DS fights, and find myself to keep up damage wise with the rest of my raid for most fights. The one fight that I seem to have quite a bit of trouble with is heroic yorsahj. I'm wondering what your timing is like for AoEing the black oozes adds? More specifically when you swap seals, if you cleave off the boss or swap targets, etc.

Most likely in prot gear atm,but using normal gurth and 396 ilvl.


P.S. Thanks for all the great info on CD usage etc above ^^.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:54 pm

ok, must have missed something... swapping seals? mid fight?

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:58 pm

gronc2 wrote:ok, must have missed something... swapping seals? mid fight?

gronc


The talent Seals of Command (I think that's still what it's called, at work can't check) gives your SoRighteousness splash damage. You should be switching for two fights. On Yor'Sahj when the adds get in range and on Madness for bloods. It's best to do this when there is an otherwise empty global or when you would be replacing something like Consecration or Holy Wrath, except on madness becuase Holy Wrath procs spell weaving afaik but you should have it up before having the option of Holy Wrathing bloods.
Last edited by Gab on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:59 pm

I try to find a white space in my rotation as the adds are spawning (or do it instead of Holy Wrath) to swap to SoR, and replace CS with DS. My main target stays on Yor'Sahj. Also, in situations of 5+ adds replace holy wrath with Cons in the rotation (glyph of cons is a slight dps increase here). If you have 4pT13 (Ret), then in some cases it can be value added to use Zeal/AW even if you're primairly DSing adds rather than pushing back a CD rotation (Yor'shaj has a "early and often" CD theory for rets because there are no big damage boost phases) due to the 18% damage boost from Zeal with the 4pc--not sure if this applies equally to 10 man though. Try to do your seal swaps during empty GCDs or ones that would otherwise be spent on low-priority abilities like HW and Cons rather than overtop a CS, J, or TV GCD.

Hopefuly Anafielle will see this and chime in here--she regularly trouces me on Yor'shaj due mostly to finding more efficient timings to seal swap and target swap (read "playing better").
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:02 pm

ok so you are swapping seals to allow you for more damage output in an AOE situation?

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:32 pm

Yep. Swapping to SoR and DS>CS is a dps gain in nearly all situations involving 4+ targets.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby rodos » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:12 pm

Cogglamp wrote:I don't have 2 piece T13 yet on my paladin so maybe that will solve my issues and this is a moot point.

Get 2pcT13 as soon as you can. Run LFR, sacrifice a kitten, whatever. Ret feels like a different class once you have it.

warden wrote:Yor'shaj has a "early and often" CD theory for rets because there are no big damage boost phases

I was dpsing a first kill of Heroic Yor this week with a new group. We were having trouble in yellow-black-red phase with heals and also getting the second set of adds down, so I found it helpful to hold GAnK for one of those phases and potion for another. I used AW+Zeal during an "easy" phase where I could CS freely and not have to move or anything.

Speaking of Yor, I see a lot of other Rets popping GAnK on the pull which seems wrong to me. Unless I'm mistaken there's not enough time to make full use of the buff before the first set of oozes spawn. Would you agree? I also see them popping wings on the pull, where they're obviously not lining it up with Zeal, so perhaps I shouldn't worry that I'm the one doing it wrong.

Ninja edit re Glyph of DP: You shouldn't even need to unglyph it if you're soaking heroic Morchok since the 15% aura. I was soaking as Holy with no shield (using Ledger) and easily survived the stomps where DP wasn't up. It's polite to your healers to use it, but hardly necessary.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:39 pm

rodos wrote:
warden wrote:Yor'shaj has a "early and often" CD theory for rets because there are no big damage boost phases

I was dpsing a first kill of Heroic Yor this week with a new group. We were having trouble in yellow-black-red phase with heals and also getting the second set of adds down, so I found it helpful to hold GAnK for one of those phases and potion for another. I used AW+Zeal during an "easy" phase where I could CS freely and not have to move or anything.

Speaking of Yor, I see a lot of other Rets popping GAnK on the pull which seems wrong to me. Unless I'm mistaken there's not enough time to make full use of the buff before the first set of oozes spawn. Would you agree? I also see them popping wings on the pull, where they're obviously not lining it up with Zeal, so perhaps I shouldn't worry.

If you do a correctly timed opener on Yor'shaj with GanK and don't get a lucky DP proc to accelerate the AW/Zeal, you'll have to sit on the boss for 6 seconds into the first ooze spawn. I just asked my RL for permission to stay on the boss for 6 seconds there and then rocket booted to the ooze once the CDs fell off, which he was fine with. If you don't get this permission, you can sacrifice one TV by burning AW/Zeal with your initial InQ application and that should time CDs to fall off just as the first oozes are spawning--less ideal, but worth it if it gets you an extra set of CDs over the course of the fight. Regarding RYB combos, absolutely that's where extra DPS is essential. We hero there to help, so I tried to line my cooldowns up with that one anyway, but not at the expense of a full CD rotation over the course of the fight.

Note: Also, to help with timing, don't forget to judge while running in if you're planning on CDing on the opener for any fight you can't start right up next to the boss on. It really helps accelerate the opener sequence when you get that 1 extra HP.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:52 am

I still have pretty bad gear with half a tier 12 and half a tier 13 lfr set. I did not get lucky with drops this week at all. I have a couple of good VP pieces but its not great. I slapped a few enchants on, but I literally don't have enough gold for landslide, what is second best enchant for now?

By reforging I am right at hit and x cap now, and have way more mastery. In one day I went from 20k dps to 40k so that was pretty cool.

I guess my biggest issue is how to work my cool downs, when to work in my healings when my healers need some help, and just figuring out when I shouldn't listen to clcret. But thanks heaps for all the help, I am really feeling much better about my work now, and if I am called upon to do some dps I will be up for the challenge.

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:51 am

gronc2 wrote:but I literally don't have enough gold for landslide, what is second best enchant for now?


Avalanche if hit capped, pyrium weapon chain if not hit capped afaik.

gronc2 wrote:By reforging I am right at hit and x cap now, and have way more mastery. In one day I went from 20k dps to 40k so that was pretty cool.


20k to 40k...? On a specific encounter? Must be more to the story.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:18 pm

No not on the same encounter, didn't realize til just a few minutes ago how big the damage buff was on madness. So one was on Ultraxion, then I reforged, and enchanted, and played better and pulled 40k on madness which has a significant buff for damage

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