Remove Advertisements

Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:53 am

That really helps. I don't think we will be hitting heroic anytime soon but having an understanding of useful "bubble" periods is great. It certainly helps me in building a framework on useful times to use bubble or HoP and trying to analyze fight mechanics better on a class level.

Does Hand of Protection break Fiery Grip on Spine?

Also, that really is eye opening on the Divine Protection/Hand of Sacrifice transfer. Time to go buy a few more dusts to have in my bag.

One question about the Spirit Link totem comment. You say it saves a lot of health but how? Are you essentially removed the spirit link health transfer mechanism since you're immune so more heals are going to those that need it or are you included but your health is going up faster since you're immune from damage?
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:58 pm

HoP and HoF don't break it. They might have during the first week or so (I've heard conflicting reports) but definately don't anymore. By the spirit link, I essentially mean that our raid strat often uses spirit links to immediately stabilize the entire raid's health (making healing almost 100% efficient) after a big spike like bolt or the last few seconds before Ultrax dies or Yorsahj yellow/red/black phases. By entering the spirit link with full health (due to the bubble) or not taking damage I'm not just helping myself... I'm helping stabilize the raid. You'll also, in our raids, see a lot of people use healthstones and stuff like LoH during critical spirit link times if the raid as a whole is very low to help spread that healing around. I know individually it isn't a lot, but we've had a ton of people saved from the instant death scenario of "Bolt explodes, corruption slaps 1/4 of the raid" because when that bolt exploded 7 or 8 people avoided the damage and spread their extra health around to the rest of the raid, allowing them to survive the slap.

Also, to save yourself some dusts... I just leave DP glyphed for the most part. I have two "guarenteed to save me" cooldowns for stop and have never needed both. If someone was doing serious progression H Morchok it might be worth it, but I'm not sure those two things even belong in the same sentence :)
Last edited by warden on Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:06 pm

Thanks for the rundown. I'm sure I have more questions but they are a bit mundane so I'll save them for later and not clutter up this thread on seemingly Ret 101 stuff.

PS - How's the classy achievement coming along?
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:13 pm

Don't worry about the questions--They're intelligent and good info to archive for any lost fellow protadins looking to sharpen up their offspec skills. I learned most of these tips and tricks from asking other pallies as well. Also, as you can tell, I can talk about Ret all day :)

On the achieve, not to derail the thread: Level 84 and 2500/6000 rep til honored, and I'm REALLY not looking forward to that last 3k rep (my 9th 85). After that we'll probably have to power level a dwarf rogue. One of our mages SoRed one from 32 to 80 so that'll be start.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:18 am

Fenrìr wrote:BIS weapons go

H Gurth > H ESS > H Warmaster weap > Normal Gurth > N ESS = H Sulf > Norm warmaster


Another quick question. Does Human racial change this in anyway? Or does the Mastery from H ESS outweigh the expertise gain from N Gurth/H Ataraxis regardless.
User avatar
Gab
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:54 am
Location: Wish you were here

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:34 am

So another question regarding spine if you don't mind.

What's the proper usage on GoAK on a tendon? I'm assuming you should pop it before the plate is blown off so you can begin to stack the strength buff but obviously you don't want to blow it too early. What do you use a queue to pop it? Do you wait until the Amalg is channeling his nuclear blast? A little before?

Also, I tend to feel uneasy about blowing my Inquisition too early so I tend to sit on 3 HoPo from 10% and less on the Amalg since I want a clean Inquisition when I run up and smack the tendon. I don't have 2 piece T13 yet on my paladin so maybe that will solve my issues and this is a moot point.

I know I'm wasting time by not downing the Amalg as fast as I can be since I'm preparing for the tendon; however, I don't want the raid to be overwhelmed by bloods either so it's a double edged sword it seems.

On another note, I've found on Yorshaj that I can close the gap on the blobs quicker if I perform a jump-spin-Judgement on Yorshaj (much like a jump shot on a hunter when kiting in PvP) after I'm sufficiently far enough away to gain the Long Arm of the Law sprint. I'm sure no one has troubles killing the blobs and I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of it but I becamse confident enough to tell our Demo Lock to just sit on the boss and nuke him as I could get more dps on the blob.
Last edited by Cogglamp on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:01 am

Judgement doesn't have a facing requirement so no need to worry about spinning. However if you want to get fancy you can use a focus judgement macro to make sure censure doesn't drop off Yor'Sahj. I wouldn't risk using it if there's any danger of not killing the ooze comfortably, but if you able to time it properly without risking the ooze hitting it's a small dps gain overall.
Rhiannon
 
Posts: 1061
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:17 am

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:19 am

Gab wrote:
Fenrìr wrote:BIS weapons go

H Gurth > H ESS > H Warmaster weap > Normal Gurth > N ESS = H Sulf > Norm warmaster


Another quick question. Does Human racial change this in anyway? Or does the Mastery from H ESS outweigh the expertise gain from N Gurth/H Ataraxis regardless.


The best answer I can give is to sim it, but IIRC it still falls ahead. It could vary though, depending on your own personal stat weights. The ones I used had it ahead by about 52 dps.

Cogg: Ok, so this is probably more information than you asked for, but it is the summary of a long email discussion between Anafielle and I when we were working on H Spine progression. All timings are applicable to normal as well.
Code: Select all
Timings to work with:
Inq: 36 Sec—note, it is fine if this falls off as the tendon uptime expires… we can afford the time without it after the tendon isn’t targetable.
GanK: 30 sec
Zeal/AoK/AW: 20 sec Rotting Skull (if used): 15 sec (this is important, as it isn’t 100% uptime)
Nuclear Blast: 5 sec cast
Tendon: 24 sec (I think the timer starts with the blast cast finishing Tendon Uptime: 19 sec (sometimes 18). Also note that sometimes I can’t cast for the last .5-1 second on the tendon.

Lets backwards plan here. The goal is all CDs falling off just as the tendon uptime finishes. That means cooldowns must get popped 3-4 seconds after the nuclear blast explosion… 1 second before the plate comes up is permissible. You don’t want to be popping them as the tendon is appearing… you’re already spamming TV at that point. Nuclear blast explodes, 2 GCDs as you’re running in, pop the CDs. The key is making sure we’re already sitting on 3HP… can’t afford to CS once to get that 3rd HP on the tendon. That means…

HP after Inq—You need 4 GCDs to get it, 5 is better. After Inq refresh (we’ll get to that in a minute), you CS, Judge, Filler, CS, and then are ready for CDs. I like having a blank GCD after that last CS before burning CDs, just for timing in case something goes wrong… like an add isn’t in range to CS immediately or whatnot. This takes 7.5 seconds (for 5 GCDs—in reality it’s a tad less since some of our abilities are on the spell GCD). 7.5 seconds before “active” is 4 seconds after nuclear blast… or 1 second into the cast. Lets also tack on the 1.5 sec GCD after the Inq refresh, which takes us back to .5 sec prior to the Nuclear blast refresh to start building our holy power to pop our CDs. This means, counting back, that at the start of our holy power building we need to have [19 sec (tendon uptime), 5 seconds (after blast, before tendon is up), 5.5 seconds (blast and padding)=29.5 sec) of Inq up prior to starting to build our holy power… Which brings us to…

Inq. What we’ve arrived at above is that the add needs to start casting Nuclear blast within 6.5 seconds of doing a 3HP Inq refresh, but before he starts casting blast. In practical application, we have a 6 second window. Once the add hits about 4-5% (or Shira calls to kill bloods), I sit on my holy power. I pop Inq with the add hits 9 stacks… This is a GREAT time marker for us, because once it hits 9, it starts AoEing… it MUST start casting blast within 3-4 seconds of this, or the raid will wipe from the aoe, making it perfect for our purposes. Also note that after the InQ is popped, don’t spend any more holy power… you’re building it and sitting on it for the CD pop. If you get a DP proc BEFORE blast starts casting, you can spend it (I use it to refresh InQ again when the time remaining on the DP is <1 sec, otherwise just try to hold it.. there’s nothing worth dpsing), and fill the extra time with DSing the bloods that are still up to refresh apparatus stacks until cooldown popping time.

Recap:
When the add hits 4-5%, start pooling HP as we kill bloods.
1-6 seconds before Nuclear Blast (when the add hits 9 stacks is ideal), refresh Inq with 3 HP After refresh and during blast cast, build and hold 3 hp.
Use empty space to keep apparatus stacks up and fish for DP procs.
Pop GanK as blast starts casting. Blast cast finishes, run in and pop CDs just before the tendon appears (while the plate is doing its post-blast wiggle).
????
Profit.

More thoughts, this time on Heroic tendon CD use (note this only applies to 25 man, as 10s can easily down a tendon in 1 burn whereas during early progression on this 25s struggled to do it in 2, and often had to do one in 3).
Code: Select all
(T=tendon, B=which burn on that tendon):
What I think is going to be most efficient:
T1B1: GanK, AW, Zeal
T1B2: Nothing.
roll
First Amalg: AW/Zeal
T2B1: Nothing
T2B2: Pot, AW, Zeal
roll
T3B1: Hero, GanK, AW/Zeal
T3B2: kill
This got us 1 more cd uses of the course of the fight while still getting a full burn on each tendon and a more optimal one on T3 when we lose one dps (kitty) to be the 3rd tank. It also helped us move the Amalg along a bit faster, shortening the overall fight.
Last edited by warden on Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:41 am

warden wrote:The best answer I can give is to sim it, but IIRC it still falls ahead. It could vary though, depending on your own personal stat weights. The ones I used had it ahead by about 52 dps.


Just curious, do you use Redcape's weights or custom weights?
User avatar
Gab
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:54 am
Location: Wish you were here

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:50 am

Custom weights from Simcraft, customized to my own gear and raid buffs and 200-500k sims depending on how much time I have.

Above post edited with spine info, yay for code tags!
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:19 am

main things I am hearing is clcret or clcinfo are very helpful. Understand best places to use your cooldowns on each fight.

Someone told me to just que in lfr as dps, and farm while I wait (switching to JC so need lots of ores), which will allow me to practice. Since I have pretty decent gear already, I should be able to pull some decent dps even as I am learning.

Will come back with more questions shortly I am sure :)

gronc
gronc2
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:59 am

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:40 am

Nope, that's exactly what I'd hope you'd write up. I love the detail. It sounds like I was a little too conservative with my HP but that could be better solved when I get 2pc T13 for extra HP generation.

So for spine do you save Divine Shield for when you need to make DWing roll and you stand in the fire pools, when you get the Fiery Grip debuff, or maybe stand closer to the plate while the Amalg finishes his nuclear blast? I would guess that it depends on how the fight is going for you so maybe all three are possibilities?
Cogglamp
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:04 am

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:48 am

I save it for breaking grip via bubble/cancel if I get gripped during a tendon burn or gripped in a blast about to go off.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:22 pm

Cogglamp wrote:On another note, I've found on Yorshaj that I can close the gap on the blobs quicker if I perform a jump-spin-Judgement on Yorshaj... to gain the Long Arm of the Law sprint.

Judgement doesn't have a facing requirement. :) Then again, that might also let you get an exo in the same way, which DOES reqire facing.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Xfighter » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:44 pm

I'm an offspec ret for some DS fights, and find myself to keep up damage wise with the rest of my raid for most fights. The one fight that I seem to have quite a bit of trouble with is heroic yorsahj. I'm wondering what your timing is like for AoEing the black oozes adds? More specifically when you swap seals, if you cleave off the boss or swap targets, etc.

Most likely in prot gear atm,but using normal gurth and 396 ilvl.


P.S. Thanks for all the great info on CD usage etc above ^^.
Xfighter
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:05 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Off-specs & Other Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?