Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:18 am

hey guys,

My ret spec is possibly needed by my build on occasion. I have not played since 60, and don't know a lot about the mechanics, but I have been reading and practicing both on the dummies and by doing dailies. I need to keep an eye on my health as I go down faster than in my tank spec :) but I was wondering if you could give me any thoughts on my gear, reforging, glyphs, talents the whole bit. And any advice on learning to play the class better would be great as well. I don't really want to wait for long periods of time to do dungeons, but I may just have to do that in order to learn what its like to do dps in a group.

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:55 am

Gronc,
I'll certainly be glad to dig into your spec and glyphing when I get home and give you a comprehensive review; until then, I'd strongly recommend reading Exemplar's outstanding guide on Elitist Jerks--It covers both basic and advanced playstyles in an easy-to-read format. My armory is http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/w ... n/advanced if you want to compare until I can get home, but realize that I'm in a raid-specific spec (spec2) or RBG spec (spec 1) with non-standard glyphing set up for H Spine, so don't read too much into it.

Edit: Armory app ftw.
Ok, I see you're set up in the cookie-cutter spec with 2/2 E4E, keeping Repentance and not taking extra points in AoS. This is pretty much the default spec for ret, and is a good choice. If you find yourself doing content that leaves you snared more often than HoF can cope with (Heroic Hagara) you can add a point in AoS from either E4E or Repent (If you're doing any 5-mans or pvp at all I'd keep Repent).

You're missing the Glyph of Templar's Verdict--replace Crusader Strike with this... this is your second highest dps glyph. You should run Glyphs of SoT, TV, and Exo for all PvE content.

Your major glyphs are mostly fine, as are your minors. Major glyphs in particular provide a TON of utility for ret. I would STRONGLY recommend replacing your glyph of Hammer of Wrath with Glyph of Divine Protection--most of the damage you'll be taking in today's content is magical, and it also synergizes well with frequent hand of sacrifice use (these should be macroed together in most cases). I probably swap out 2-3 major glyphs per raid night just to pick the right ones for a given fight.

Your hit and expertise are both over cap. When I get home I can help you work up a profile to better utilize your secondary stats. I recommend simming your stat weights, then inputing those into Wowreforge or MrRobot for optimization of your gear. Remember, you want 8% melee hit and 16 Expertise before the SoT glyph (which will make 26).

More to follow...
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:32 am

Quick and dirty:

Install clcret. Resize and reposition it where you want it to be, I like it to be just above my centrally-located (target) unit frames.

I also like to use Holy Trinity, and have WeakAuras set up so that I can see duration of Inquisition, Avenging Wrath ("Wings"), and Zealotry.

Use Seal of Truth (SoT). If you have Massive AOE, or expect to have things die Really Fast, Seal of Righteousness (SoR) is OK. "Really Fast" is like five to eight seconds, btw -- use SoT on nearly every add you encounter in most fights. Until you get a feel for when to use SoR, just use SoT all the time, unless you're specifically in "AOE mode". (I use SoR for bloods on Madness of DW and for the faceless ones that spawn on one of the first-wing bosses, since they spawn in a herd.)

Try to keep Inquisition rolling all the time. It's a substantial damage buff, as nearly all your damage is holy-flavored.

Macro Wings and Zealotry together. Pop them near the beginning of the fight, and they will almost always be up in time to use a second or third time in the fight. It's really important to squeeze in as many as you can. You can optimize by waiting until you have X seconds remaining of Inquisition, but I am not that skilled yet. :)

I start most fights with Guardian of Ancient Kings, and then Wings+Zealotry about ten seconds later, so that GoAK is running through my first one, but sometimes I save GoAK for later burn phases (like heroism or a Wings+Zealotry use in a phase where burst damage is more important). You can use it three times on Madness of Deathwing, usually, though I nearly always forget to do so.

You can read first page of the thread at ElitistJerks, or use Noxxic.com for a good overview as well. But between "use CLCret" and "use cooldowns early and often", you're already a cut above most people who play it.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:56 pm

warden wrote:Gronc,
I'll certainly be glad to dig into your spec and glyphing when I get home and give you a comprehensive review; until then, I'd strongly recommend reading Exemplar's outstanding guide on Elitist Jerks--It covers both basic and advanced playstyles in an easy-to-read format. My armory is http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/w ... n/advanced if you want to compare until I can get home, but realize that I'm in a raid-specific spec (spec2) or RBG spec (spec 1) with non-standard glyphing set up for H Spine, so don't read too much into it.

Edit: Armory app ftw.
Ok, I see you're set up in the cookie-cutter spec with 2/2 E4E, keeping Repentance and not taking extra points in AoS. This is pretty much the default spec for ret, and is a good choice. If you find yourself doing content that leaves you snared more often than HoF can cope with (Heroic Hagara) you can add a point in AoS from either E4E or Repent (If you're doing any 5-mans or pvp at all I'd keep Repent).

You're missing the Glyph of Templar's Verdict--replace Crusader Strike with this... this is your second highest dps glyph. You should run Glyphs of SoT, TV, and Exo for all PvE content.

Your major glyphs are mostly fine, as are your minors. Major glyphs in particular provide a TON of utility for ret. I would STRONGLY recommend replacing your glyph of Hammer of Wrath with Glyph of Divine Protection--most of the damage you'll be taking in today's content is magical, and it also synergizes well with frequent hand of sacrifice use (these should be macroed together in most cases). I probably swap out 2-3 major glyphs per raid night just to pick the right ones for a given fight.

Your hit and expertise are both over cap. When I get home I can help you work up a profile to better utilize your secondary stats. I recommend simming your stat weights, then inputing those into Wowreforge or MrRobot for optimization of your gear. Remember, you want 8% melee hit and 16 Expertise before the SoT glyph (which will make 26).

More to follow...


dude, you are bis every slot, I have never seen that before. I was trying to get my stats to line up but I couldn't seem to take more hit or expertise off. Do I dump it all into mastery, then haste, then crit?

I will make glyph changes you suggest. The truth is I am a protadin and I want to tank every fight, but sometimes I will be needed as dps and I want to be able to hold up my place in the raid, so any help you can give me is appreciated. Especially recomendations for getting the experience

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:57 pm

btw thanks to the both of you for your responses

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby econ21 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:53 pm

Anyone hear play Ret in PvP? Now that I have picked up a normal Gurthalak, I'm wondering whether to switch from Prot PvP to Ret. I only play random BGs, to pick up CPs for that nice looking Arena set of armour. Prot is supposed to be weak, after vengeance was removed from PvP, but I still have a role in a number of BGs as either Flag carrier (WSG, TP, EoS not so much) or PvE tank (IoC, AV). But I wonder if I will see a quality of life improvement if I go ret. I suspect I am fine as Prot vs undergeared players but woefully underpowered vs geared ones.

I don't have much idea how Ret plays in PvP. I rely on CLCRet for PvE, but guess things will be very different in PvP. Any tips or good links for a newbie?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:48 pm

econ21 wrote:Anyone hear play Ret in PvP? Now that I have picked up a normal Gurthalak, I'm wondering whether to switch from Prot PvP to Ret. I don't have much idea how Ret plays in PvP. I rely on CLCRet for PvE, but guess things will be very different in PvP. Any tips or good links for a newbie?

I can't comment much on Battlegrounds, but overall I enjoy Ret more than Prot for arenas. My burst is higher (though so is my mortality), and being able to cleanse snares is a huge quality of life improvement. I like it a lot better for arenas. I miss a ranged silence, mind you, but as Prot I just couldn't put any pressure on a healer or a burst target. Moreover, I can heal twice as often with Word of Glory, and have talents that make it heal better. So, I'm better able to support my partners as Ret, even if I die much more often.

I use clcret in PvP as well, except that I am still trying to master when it's better to use my holy power on Inquisition, or if it's better to push through with multiple weaker TVs (such as when trying to pressure a healer). I always second guess it, no matter which I choose. ("If I had inquisition up, I might've killed him with that exo->HoWrath pair!", or "If I'd used my holy power on two TVs, rather than Inq/TV, I might have gotten him low enough for my partner to finish off")
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:12 pm

Econ: I pvp as ret on and off. Arenajunkies has some good info if you're looking for a starting point, but I'm hardly an expert.

Gronc: First off, now that I can get a good look at your armory profile, here's what I see:
- You're way over on expertise (I already thought this, but being able to see the rating confirms it... drop down to 16 skill to make 26 with the glyph).
- Try to drop haste instead of crit to gain mastery. It is by far your best stat (after strength and hit/expertise caps).
- 8 unenchanted items. I know you're a work in progress with this set, so I assume you'll already be fixing this.
- The 40 mastery gem in your legs is bad. Go 20 Str/20 Mastery instead.
- So is the 20 Str/20 Crit. Go 20 Str/20 Mastery.
- I assume the 60 Stam gem in your ring is from your prot set. Go 40 Str there, or if you're worried about being able to use it for both sets, go 20 str/20 mastery (which will be somewhat useful for prot as well) to get the 10 str socket bonus.

Fix up these basic issues, throw me a post here, and I'll be glad to sim you some custom stat weights and help you tweak your reforging to perfect once they're gtg. Also, if you have questions about any specific fights as ret, let me know, or I have videos of every progression fight in Dragon Soul from a ret PoV that I can PM you links to as required.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:33 am

econ21 wrote:Anyone hear play Ret in PvP?


Most of this has already been covered but ret is a ton of fun this season. Massive amounts of burst damage AND burst healing. I have seen 100k+ heals on my rogue 2v2 partner, with wings and what not but still.

With Cleanse (1/2 AoS), HoF, HoS and Long arm of the Law you are virtually un CCable when used properly. Where as Prot it's pretty easy to get snared to hell and your heals and burst are nowhere near what you get with Ret not to mention lower HPG. A ranged Silence/Snare is nice and all, but with ret you should be able to Rebuke a lot more often with all the tools you have to stay out of CC and on stay on target.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:28 am

warden wrote:Econ: I pvp as ret on and off. Arenajunkies has some good info if you're looking for a starting point, but I'm hardly an expert.

Gronc: First off, now that I can get a good look at your armory profile, here's what I see:
- You're way over on expertise (I already thought this, but being able to see the rating confirms it... drop down to 16 skill to make 26 with the glyph).
- Try to drop haste instead of crit to gain mastery. It is by far your best stat (after strength and hit/expertise caps).
- 8 unenchanted items. I know you're a work in progress with this set, so I assume you'll already be fixing this.
- The 40 mastery gem in your legs is bad. Go 20 Str/20 Mastery instead.
- So is the 20 Str/20 Crit. Go 20 Str/20 Mastery.
- I assume the 60 Stam gem in your ring is from your prot set. Go 40 Str there, or if you're worried about being able to use it for both sets, go 20 str/20 mastery (which will be somewhat useful for prot as well) to get the 10 str socket bonus.

Fix up these basic issues, throw me a post here, and I'll be glad to sim you some custom stat weights and help you tweak your reforging to perfect once they're gtg. Also, if you have questions about any specific fights as ret, let me know, or I have videos of every progression fight in Dragon Soul from a ret PoV that I can PM you links to as required.

not only do I not have all my enchants, but I am rapidly accruing gear so some of it seems silly to enchant until I have run some more lfr's and N DS. Yesterday I picked up Normal Gurthalak which is kinda sweet :) My Pally set is pretty well balanced at the moment, but I don't think a tiny bit less stamina will hurt if I prioritize ret on my ring. So if I have this right:

hit 8
x 16

then mastery > crit > haste ?

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:50 am

gronc2 wrote:hit 8
x 16

then mastery > crit > haste ?

gronc


For the most part yes. Some arguments have been made for haste>crit or at least trying to balance them somewhat, but it's pretty inconclusive AFAIK. Obviously if a piece is missing mastery you want to reforge to mastery using whatever the higher stat is regardless of what that stat is as long as you can still hit and expertise cap.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:06 am

Haste theory comes mostly from Exemplar's spreadsheet; That said, I've never actually seen a top-parsing ret go haste>crit. At the extreme high levels of gear (I started seeing hints of this around 400 equipped Ilvl) crit can momentairly eclipse mastery, but this situation is incredibly rare and swings back in favor of mastery after only small gains in crit. I'm a firm believer in simcraft over the spreadsheet, and model all of my stat weights with 200k-500k cycles of sims before plugging them into wowreforge to optimize. Gab's post outlines a good rule of thumb for gear, but also consider that strength is far above other stats and leads to the higher Ilvl piece usually being the best option regardless of secondary itemization (mastery vs crit vs haste... the only exception to this is weapons, where weapon type and speed play major factors as well. With a normal gurth, you'll be good until you get a heroic specimen slicer and even then the damage difference is only a couple hundred dps.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:14 am

thanks

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:15 pm

Also, I suspect that mastering choices in how you play (or how aggressively you pursue clcret's recommendations), and how aggressive you are with cooldowns and staying on target, play a lot more in your damage than crit vs haste. Playing well will net you large benefits, even if your gear is not optimal. Gear comes with time and luck, but skill you can work for.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:51 pm

And while what you just posted sounds great as a post on a forum, it doesn't have anything to do with the posts that I've made. A few points:
- The haste vs crit piece is a big deal. The spreadsheet grossly overvalues haste just like most non-sim methods of stat weight computation tend to (ask a top-end hunter about Female Dwarf's overvaluing of haste vs simcraft) to the tune of almost double its actual value. This isn't the end-all of ret, but it is the difference between killing H Ultraxion with 1 second left on the enrage cast and wiping to Twilight Eruption at .1% (not hypthetical...our first kill was 6:04).
- Playing well is independent of min-maxing the existing gear he does have correctly. I can't evaluate his time on target, rotation, gap-filling, etc based on an armory link... but I can provide corrections/suggestions to what I see.
- clcRet is an 80% solution at best. It has definately gotten better, but lacks the intricate customization options of clcInfo that allow you to reach the 90-95% optimal level in performace.
- Knowing when to ignore clcInfo/clcRet is almost important as following it well.
- Case and point, in modern ret play it is perfectly acceptable to allow Inq to fall off during your rotation under certain common circumstances for brief periods. I'm not even talking about extreme circumstances like spine cooldown lineup (a 37 second pre-planning that takes a full page to type out), but just regular rotation.
- Deliberate cooldown planning in Dragon Soul is far more important than the Firelands mentality of "use early, use often."
- Skill is definately a massive factor in your play, but blindly following an addon isn't skill. Furthermore, skill =/= gear. Neither great skill nor unfamiliarity with the playstyle is an excuse not to min-max the gear you do have to the best of your ability.
- Finally, and this is just my opinion, but the difference between a good ret and a great ret isn't a couple hundred dps... it is how they use their entire toolbox. We have some of the best raid utility in the game... but unused we're just a plate-wearing 3% damage buff in a tier where the two hardest fights favor staff-wielding arcane mages for that role.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:07 pm

Well said :) I just meant that until he (or I, or anyone) are comfortable enough with the toolbox, it's hard to make use of the gear. You're quite right that we need to work on maximizing that, too.

Thanks for the tip on clcinfo being that much better. I didn't know that. :)
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:19 pm

All good, and sorry if I came off defensive. I think you'll have fun with clcInfo--it just has a ton more options for advanced users to situationally tweak their rotation settings and more.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:47 pm

Don't worry about seeming defensive: I can see that what I wrote sounded a lot like "Ignore what he said, mash your face harder!". ;) I noticed a huge difference when I reforged for mastery, and am pretty certain that there's a lot of fine tuning in individual fights that I can do to squeeze out more dps.

I tried clcinfo at one point and could not figure out how to configure it for Ret. =/ So I went back to clcret after a recent (within last six months? year?) update as it was better than nothing. I'm sure that clcinfo's improved a lot since I tried it, and I bet people have pasted configurations for it. (In fact, I think YOU did in this thread.)

I think one of the best points you made was that "early and often" cooldown use is NOT always best -- and it varies heavily with the fight. You'd hate to cast it before one of Hagara's dance phases, as an extreme example, and delaying them enough to have up for tentacles on Madness seems super-useful in LFR. Still, I think of it that way since otherwise I sometimes will go a minute or two and forget to use it. Casting Guardian of Ancient Kings only once in Madness, for example, is a mistake I make frequently.

Knowing when to ignore clcInfo/clcRet is almost important as following it well.... In modern ret play it is perfectly acceptable to allow Inq to fall off during your rotation under certain common circumstances for brief periods.

Can you elaborate on this? I often feel, especially near the end of killing something, that I'd be better off spending my HP on TV rather than Inq, but am not really clear how to measure it or recognize the situation ahead of time.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Worldie » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:03 pm

Back when I played ret, I remind it was fine to let Inq drop for 2-3 seconds top, assuming you weren't using any ability in that timespan.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:39 pm

Pretty much what worldie said, with one addition:

In T13 content, after 2pT13 (even LFR), you generate holy power so fast that 3HP Inq refreshes come much faster than before. In T11 the mantra was initally to refresh at 6 seconds left, but later this became 4, which prevailed (with the exception of 4pT11) through Firelands, particularly after the change to Inq providing 12 sec/hp instead of 10. With the added 2pT13 HP generation it is safe to refresh at 2 seconds remaining or less. Most of the time you find it falling off under these circumstances, as Worldie mentioned, it is "white space" in the rotation. In the rare case that you're actively using an ability with no Inq up, it is usually either holy wrath (low damage) or the Inq refresh itself... an inconsequential dps loss compared to the gain of not having to refresh as often. Sometimes you'll also ignore the refresh suggestion intentionally... some examples:

- On Ultraxion I'll rarely try to squeeze in one more TV before an hour of twilight or fading light, even if clc says to refresh InQ, rather than zone out and waste uptime that could have gone to dps (although now I'm usually "out" for less than half a second--my timing has improved a lot).
- On Yor'shaj if I'm about to run off after an ooze I'll push out one more TV and do the run with no Inq rather than refresh and run.
- On Haraga I'll sometimes try to squeeze in one more TV before feedback falls off rather than refresh because of the damage multiplier (but this usually means I failed at refreshing right as the last Ice Pillar was dying). Same for Zon'ozz's black phase.
- On spine (particularly heroic) getting that last TV off on a tendon before the plate comes down is a better use of 3hp or a DP proc than refreshing. You can build up the HP/refresh on the adds afterward.
- "The boss is about to die" I've found is almost always a DPS loss to not refresh. Unless the boss is going to die in the next 3-4 global cooldowns (TOPS), refresh.

Just a few examples--I'm sure you were actually unconciously doing many of these without even thinking about them and just didn't realize it.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby anafielle » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:28 pm

There is an easy way to configure CLCInfo for ret: Ask Warden how to configure CLCinfo for ret. (I use this update mechanic every time a patch drops! Hasn't failed me yet!!)
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:50 pm

anafielle wrote:There is an easy way to configure CLCInfo for ret: Ask Warden how to configure CLCinfo for ret. (I use this update mechanic every time a patch drops! Hasn't failed me yet!!)

<3

I was about to do the same thing. ;) I found a quick video on youtube that seemed to show how to get it running, but I'm sure there's many more things to tweak it to be even more awesome.

Also, Warden -- thanks for the rundown. I've been doing it on a few things (tendons, Ultraxion), but hadn't managed to do it as well on Hagara or Yor'shaj. I always manage to lose track of when I need to have holy power pooled on Hagara, especially -- on LFR I get so few GCDs on target for the dance phases that I often am unable to have full holy power for the Feedback phases. I confess that I tend to not spend my holy power on the ice crystals, and put up Inq just before her shield falls (when possible).

I'm especially bad at making sure that I have 20+ seconds of Inquisition rolling before I pop Avenging Wrath and Zealotry, and at timing my Guardian.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Cogglamp » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:53 am

Dear Ann Landers,

I apologize for the seemingly dumb question, but for fights like Zon'ozz, Spine and Hagara where you have limited windows of burn time, is it best of pop all your cooldowns at once say on the first and third damage increase phases or stagger them? Or do something completely different?

For example, we usually get 3 Dark Phases on Zon'ozz in our guild runs. So should I hit Zealotry for the first, AW for the second and then Zealotry + GoAK for the third since you have the damage multiplier stacked or pop Zealotry & AW on the first and third and include GoAK on the third one and just ignore the second?

Same idea for Hagara and Tendons since the timing of my cooldowns don't seem to sync up. I want to help out as much as I can on each tendon without jeopardizing the success of tendon #2 or #3 or whatever.

Sincerely,
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:08 am

Your cooldowns are ALWAYS* better stacked together rather than apart. If you get 3 dark phases, you should be able to AW/Zeal #1, nothing #2, and AW/GanK/Zeal/Pot #3. For Hagara again I aim for the #1/#3 feedback phases I think. For tendons, it depends on your raid's timing and strengths, which I'd be happy to work with you on, but are very timing-specific. Just send me an ingame message when you see me come up on RealID and we'll talk--I love talking ret with friends. Also, there are external factors to consider on Spine, like heroism. Common logic says to stack cooldowns with hero, but if the only thing that matters is tendon damage, cooldowns + hero might be overkill, depending on your raid. Again, hit me up and we'll talk. Also, if you want to see how timings and such line up (ONE way, not THE way), I usually livestream while raiding and I'd be welcome to shoot you the address (tonight will be 7-11 CST, 8/8H DS and 7/7H Firelands most likely)... just shoot me a PM on here or a message ingame.

* = there are incredibly rare, exceptional circumstances where this doesn't always apply that are so rare I don't want to talk about here so I don't confuse people.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:19 am

Hey Warden, was focusing on DS with my tank for the last few days. Last night we one shot everything in normal, so next week it looks like we start taking on the heroics. (we did try a few, including one shotting Morchok)

But you have been so helpful, and I would like to work on my ret a lot the rest of the week, so I am gonna do my lfrs as ret, and might do some HoT as well. Would love to keep the talk up, I will also have time an a few gold to put the enchants on my gear, but I am not putting the expensive ones on unless I have gear that I will keep for a while.

thanks again,

gronc
gronc2
 
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:59 am

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