Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:05 am

Levantine wrote:How often have you needed to taunt a boss at the beginning of the fight this expansion? Unless you'd already heard about the bug or you're a bad tank that taunts at the beginning of the pull I can see your ret paladin dieing in the confusion the first time.


Bad tanks taunt on the pull? News to me. Late misdirect, tricks to other dps, having first two attacks miss - a tank that doesn't taunt as they pull to guarantee aggro for first 3 seconds is what I'd consider bad.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Firas » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:50 pm

Schroom wrote:yes, damn I missed it, but I can imagine, seeing logs like this: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8 ... #Theepally.

1.7 Million DPS. A wet dream ^^



1.7m is for scrubs.

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Levantine » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:14 am

Rhiannon wrote:
Levantine wrote:How often have you needed to taunt a boss at the beginning of the fight this expansion? Unless you'd already heard about the bug or you're a bad tank that taunts at the beginning of the pull I can see your ret paladin dieing in the confusion the first time.


Bad tanks taunt on the pull? News to me. Late misdirect, tricks to other dps, having first two attacks miss - a tank that doesn't taunt as they pull to guarantee aggro for first 3 seconds is what I'd consider bad.


Don't confuse compensating for regular bad behaviour (the bug free kind) from the rest of the raid with a good habit to have in general. What I'm curious over is how you can have a late Misdirection? Are your Hunters not as eager to pew pew as your casters who are precasting nukes?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Rhiannon » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:31 am

In pugs late/no mds are common. Also with guilds other than my main's guild. When MM was the spec of choice the opening shot was a 2 secondish aimed shot hardcast, and on some fights pre-casting wasn't possible (Sinestra without resetting). With pre-casting in general, you frequently get someone who goes a half second earlier than anyone else, and if it's a pyroblast crit then even a misdirected explosive shot that doesn't crit coupled with a miss or two might not be enough anyway.

Why on earth would someone not taunt on the pull? With a second taunt to cover the five seconds before taunt comes back off cd I have no idea why you wouldn't.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:36 pm

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:36 pm

Please give me tips on how to do better on Madness. It's a long fight where I can use cooldowns multiple times, but I'd like to know whether my tactics are useless meter padding, or are actually useful.

My gear: http://www.chardev.org/?profile=343043
S11 conquest gear and weapon (and chain), PvE trinkets, 2x T13. I'm running LFR to upgrade the other slots.

  • In P2, I want to maximize the usefulness of my cooldowns. Am I better off using it when the two big adds are up (so tanks live more easily), or when we're all on Deathwing and heroism is popped? So far I've been using it on Deathwing after the first adds are dead, but am not sure that's the best idea.
  • In P1, I use Wings+Zealotry when the mutated tentacle pops up, on the theory that killing it sooner will help prevent tank deaths. Also, it happens at the start of the phase, so I'll have the cooldown ready once that island is done, so I can ensure it's ready in P2 when I need it. Is it better to use it when bloods are up, or Cataclysm is happening?
  • Is it best to use SoR on tentacles in P2? They seem to cluster somewhat randomly, but they often seem to have 2-4 near enough together to hit with SoR. Should I be using it when the big adds are up, also (also for the adds on Blackhorn), or is it better to use SoT? (Now that I recall,I think SoTruth is better for 2 targets, so I've been doing it wrong. Whoops.)

Also, Warden, I love your sig. ;)
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:20 pm

I'll take a look at your gear and such when I get home and can access chardev. Here's what I'd reccomend for cooldown timing (for a typical LFR):

Platform 1: Burn CDs (including GanK) according to normal opener rules with your pre-pot. Anafielle prefers to delay hers about 10 seconds to get more uptime on the mutated corruption; this is quite possibly the smarter option. Burn your 2nd set of AW/Zeal on the arm/wing tentacle unless there are only a few % left on it. If there are, save them to burn on the corruption on platform 2.

Platform 2: Your CDs will still be on cooldown, unless you saved them from Platform 1, in which case you burn them according to normal cycle (3hp, 20+ sec on InQ, etc) on the mutated corruption. Burn your 2nd set on the arm/wing tentacle the same as platform 1, again saving them if there are only a couple % left.

Platform 3: Same thing. You'll almost guarenteed be able to use them on the arm/wing this time, as this is where LFR dps falls off hard due to Noz's 20% haste being gone.

Platform 4: Burn your cooldowns on the arm/wing for the first burning tentacle thing spawn. You have to be really fast at killing them--most of LFR will be tunnel-visioning the arm so it'll be left to the few smart people to kill them quickly. I burn my 2nd guardian and pot here too.

P2: Burn them on DW after the 1st set of terrors die, IF they're back up. Usually they won't be for p2.

When to aoe: Bloods--switch to SoR when the hemorage starts, so that it is already up (and the GCD is over) when they spawn. Divine storm them down. Note that when the bloods are up, Holy Wrath procs spellweaving on each one, making it your 3rd highest priority spell when the whole pile of bloods (on 25 man--there aren't enough on 10 man to elevate its priority) is up.

When the elementium shrapnel-thrower things are up, make a judgement call as soon as you see their pre-spawn locations. If 4 or more are within divine storm range, switch to SoR and aoe them down. If not, leave SoT up and single target them. Again, pre-cast SoR if you're going to switch so the GCD is over. The breakpoint for both SoR and DS to be worth using is 4 targets.

The CD timing is really dependent on the group's dps. What I listed above should be typical for a 25 man LFR pug or a group working on Madness 25 or in the early stages. Later-stage farm groups will find that they move through the fight much faster and have to adjust their CDs appropriately, while LFR groups that are struggling might get full CD burns while under Cata.

Hope it helps!
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:38 pm

warden wrote:I'll take a look at your gear and such when I get home and can access chardev.

Probably not necessary: short of reforging differently, there's not much I can change right now, and just about any 384 raid finder piece is probably better than my 403 pvp piece (if wowhead's ratings are to be believed). The "big" upgrade will be two more pieces of T13, and a Gurthalak, if one ever manages to drop (and I manage to win it). I suspect that my gear needs a lot of improvement before I'll be viable for non-LFR Dragon Soul, though.

warden wrote:Platform 1: Burn CDs (including GanK) according to normal opener rules with your pre-pot... Burn your 2nd set of AW/Zeal on the arm/wing tentacle unless there are only a few % left on it. If there are, save them to burn on the corruption on platform 2.

Hm, I hadn't thought about being able to get TWO cycles in on the first platform. I'll have to try that. I've been waiting for the Corruption because otherwise I have a few wasted seconds of travel time, but getting a second AW/Zeal cycle might be worth it.

warden wrote:Platform 4: Burn your cooldowns on the arm/wing for the first burning tentacle thing spawn. You have to be really fast at killing them--most of LFR will be tunnel-visioning the arm so it'll be left to the few smart people to kill them quickly. I burn my 2nd guardian and pot here too.

I've had really good luck with LFR groups, and the burning tentacles always seem to die fast. If the group seemed to be having trouble, I can certainly see that being a good idea.

warden wrote:The breakpoint for both SoR and DS to be worth using is 4 targets.

Thanks for the reminder -- I've definitely been doing it wrong, then. :) I guess on two targets, I can stack Censure + SoTruth on both targets, at least.

Thanks a TON for your help. :) I've been having so much fun as ret that I haven't tanked anything in almost a month.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:34 am

Question about weapon choice.

I have been using normal Gurth but last night picked up a heroic Speciman Slicer. I went back and looked at the logs from our raid last night for the bosses I went Ret; Mostly Hagara heroic but a few pulls on Zon'ozz. The damage done by the Gurth proc was extremely underwhelming, the best pull for the Gurth proc was 1.3% of total damage done. About half the pulls it registered 0% of my total damage done and overall it averaged around .4% total damage done.

I know this is probably not the best sample to pull from because of the nature of the Hagara fight and the length of some of our pulls but to me it would seem that there is no compelling reason to use normal Gurth over heroic Specimen Slicer. Am I missing something here?

Not able to post a link to logs at work but will update the post with the link when I get home.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:18 pm

BIS weapons go

H Gurth > H ESS > H Warmaster weap > Normal Gurth > N ESS = H Sulf > Norm warmaster



Not to mention, our chances to proc a tentacle is by far, the lowest of any class that can use the. I think it was calc'd out at around 55 chances per minute while Wars and DKs were 80+. So you're not really missing anything on the data, it's just the nerf Blizzard gave us because we were too high on the dps charts.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:42 pm

Thanks Fenrir. Alot of conflicting information all over the place about Ret BiS. But after looking at the logs of my own experiences I was shocked at how little the proc was doing.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:33 pm

Fenrìr wrote:H Gurth > H ESS > H Warmaster weap > Normal Gurth > N ESS = H Sulf > Norm warmaster


Are normal weapons > the LFR Gurth?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:20 am

I would say yes, simply because of weapon damage. However it may be slightly better if not on par with Norm Warmaster.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Kelaan » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:56 am

Interesting. I'm already using one of the PvP weapons, and the weapon damage doesn't sim as high despite higher base damage.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:42 pm

The PvP weapons are pretty terrible due to the complete loss of one secondary stat worth of itemization. Also, IIRC, the PvP weapons are not mastery-based, they're crit-based, costing you your BEST secondary stat. Honestly I never simmed the normal DS weapons myself, so I can't answer the question above, but I would encourage you to get a PvE weapon to use. Even a 403 PvP weapon is going to fall way behind a 397 PvE weapon in PvE.
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