Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:54 pm

ok, must have missed something... swapping seals? mid fight?

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:58 pm

gronc2 wrote:ok, must have missed something... swapping seals? mid fight?

gronc


The talent Seals of Command (I think that's still what it's called, at work can't check) gives your SoRighteousness splash damage. You should be switching for two fights. On Yor'Sahj when the adds get in range and on Madness for bloods. It's best to do this when there is an otherwise empty global or when you would be replacing something like Consecration or Holy Wrath, except on madness becuase Holy Wrath procs spell weaving afaik but you should have it up before having the option of Holy Wrathing bloods.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:59 pm

I try to find a white space in my rotation as the adds are spawning (or do it instead of Holy Wrath) to swap to SoR, and replace CS with DS. My main target stays on Yor'Sahj. Also, in situations of 5+ adds replace holy wrath with Cons in the rotation (glyph of cons is a slight dps increase here). If you have 4pT13 (Ret), then in some cases it can be value added to use Zeal/AW even if you're primairly DSing adds rather than pushing back a CD rotation (Yor'shaj has a "early and often" CD theory for rets because there are no big damage boost phases) due to the 18% damage boost from Zeal with the 4pc--not sure if this applies equally to 10 man though. Try to do your seal swaps during empty GCDs or ones that would otherwise be spent on low-priority abilities like HW and Cons rather than overtop a CS, J, or TV GCD.

Hopefuly Anafielle will see this and chime in here--she regularly trouces me on Yor'shaj due mostly to finding more efficient timings to seal swap and target swap (read "playing better").
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:02 pm

ok so you are swapping seals to allow you for more damage output in an AOE situation?

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:32 pm

Yep. Swapping to SoR and DS>CS is a dps gain in nearly all situations involving 4+ targets.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby rodos » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:12 pm

Cogglamp wrote:I don't have 2 piece T13 yet on my paladin so maybe that will solve my issues and this is a moot point.

Get 2pcT13 as soon as you can. Run LFR, sacrifice a kitten, whatever. Ret feels like a different class once you have it.

warden wrote:Yor'shaj has a "early and often" CD theory for rets because there are no big damage boost phases

I was dpsing a first kill of Heroic Yor this week with a new group. We were having trouble in yellow-black-red phase with heals and also getting the second set of adds down, so I found it helpful to hold GAnK for one of those phases and potion for another. I used AW+Zeal during an "easy" phase where I could CS freely and not have to move or anything.

Speaking of Yor, I see a lot of other Rets popping GAnK on the pull which seems wrong to me. Unless I'm mistaken there's not enough time to make full use of the buff before the first set of oozes spawn. Would you agree? I also see them popping wings on the pull, where they're obviously not lining it up with Zeal, so perhaps I shouldn't worry that I'm the one doing it wrong.

Ninja edit re Glyph of DP: You shouldn't even need to unglyph it if you're soaking heroic Morchok since the 15% aura. I was soaking as Holy with no shield (using Ledger) and easily survived the stomps where DP wasn't up. It's polite to your healers to use it, but hardly necessary.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:39 pm

rodos wrote:
warden wrote:Yor'shaj has a "early and often" CD theory for rets because there are no big damage boost phases

I was dpsing a first kill of Heroic Yor this week with a new group. We were having trouble in yellow-black-red phase with heals and also getting the second set of adds down, so I found it helpful to hold GAnK for one of those phases and potion for another. I used AW+Zeal during an "easy" phase where I could CS freely and not have to move or anything.

Speaking of Yor, I see a lot of other Rets popping GAnK on the pull which seems wrong to me. Unless I'm mistaken there's not enough time to make full use of the buff before the first set of oozes spawn. Would you agree? I also see them popping wings on the pull, where they're obviously not lining it up with Zeal, so perhaps I shouldn't worry.

If you do a correctly timed opener on Yor'shaj with GanK and don't get a lucky DP proc to accelerate the AW/Zeal, you'll have to sit on the boss for 6 seconds into the first ooze spawn. I just asked my RL for permission to stay on the boss for 6 seconds there and then rocket booted to the ooze once the CDs fell off, which he was fine with. If you don't get this permission, you can sacrifice one TV by burning AW/Zeal with your initial InQ application and that should time CDs to fall off just as the first oozes are spawning--less ideal, but worth it if it gets you an extra set of CDs over the course of the fight. Regarding RYB combos, absolutely that's where extra DPS is essential. We hero there to help, so I tried to line my cooldowns up with that one anyway, but not at the expense of a full CD rotation over the course of the fight.

Note: Also, to help with timing, don't forget to judge while running in if you're planning on CDing on the opener for any fight you can't start right up next to the boss on. It really helps accelerate the opener sequence when you get that 1 extra HP.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:52 am

I still have pretty bad gear with half a tier 12 and half a tier 13 lfr set. I did not get lucky with drops this week at all. I have a couple of good VP pieces but its not great. I slapped a few enchants on, but I literally don't have enough gold for landslide, what is second best enchant for now?

By reforging I am right at hit and x cap now, and have way more mastery. In one day I went from 20k dps to 40k so that was pretty cool.

I guess my biggest issue is how to work my cool downs, when to work in my healings when my healers need some help, and just figuring out when I shouldn't listen to clcret. But thanks heaps for all the help, I am really feeling much better about my work now, and if I am called upon to do some dps I will be up for the challenge.

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:51 am

gronc2 wrote:but I literally don't have enough gold for landslide, what is second best enchant for now?


Avalanche if hit capped, pyrium weapon chain if not hit capped afaik.

gronc2 wrote:By reforging I am right at hit and x cap now, and have way more mastery. In one day I went from 20k dps to 40k so that was pretty cool.


20k to 40k...? On a specific encounter? Must be more to the story.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:18 pm

No not on the same encounter, didn't realize til just a few minutes ago how big the damage buff was on madness. So one was on Ultraxion, then I reforged, and enchanted, and played better and pulled 40k on madness which has a significant buff for damage

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:16 pm

Well, you'll naturally do more damage on Madness due to how the fight works. It's not really a fair assessment to judge two different fights with one giving you a damage/haste buff.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:23 pm

didn't I just say that?

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby warden » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:59 pm

For all of you protadins on here galavanting around in your offspecs, our very own Anafille wrote an awesome blog post today on her journey from Prot to Ret, and its a great read. Check it out on Ana, Theck and Meloree's blog: http://sacredduty.net/2012/04/02/why-i- ... tribution/
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:36 am

warden wrote:For all of you protadins on here galavanting around in your offspecs, our very own Anafille wrote an awesome blog post today on her journey from Prot to Ret, and its a great read. Check it out on Ana, Theck and Meloree's blog: http://sacredduty.net/2012/04/02/why-i- ... tribution/


Good read, well written. It echoes some of my same feelings. Although I still enjoy tanking and it will stay my main spec for now, I find myself more and more enjoying melting some face. Every week I look forward to Zon'ozz, Yor'sahj and Hagara and even the Firelands runs to finish our mage's staff where I get to go Ret.

Ret has done a lot of evolution over time and seems to just keep getting better and better (more fun to play) every expansion. It's definitely been a great experience during Cata. Thanks again for all the advice and insight in helping me be a respectable closet Ret.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby gronc2 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:03 am

now have the rotting skull trink SO I am running license to slay with it. I have had no luck so far this week with drops but still have my lfr's to run. Any thoughts on the trinks? other trinks?

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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Fenrìr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:03 pm

I don't know what your rep is with Avengers of Hyjal, but the Essence of Eternal Flame is a decent trinket. I know some people are still using the heroic version of Heart of Rage from Chim in BWD as well.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby benebarba » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:25 am

I figured this probably the best place for this occasional ret-playing tankadin to ask: what the heck are we supposed to do with HoPo during AOE periods? I have the 'keep inq rolling' thing down more or less, but occasionally seem to end up in a place where it seems like nothing else changes from single target (unless there are enough to justify using DS). Am I doing it wrong?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:32 am

benebarba wrote:I figured this probably the best place for this occasional ret-playing tankadin to ask: what the heck are we supposed to do with HoPo during AOE periods? I have the 'keep inq rolling' thing down more or less, but occasionally seem to end up in a place where it seems like nothing else changes from single target (unless there are enough to justify using DS). Am I doing it wrong?


With the HoPo (and DP procs) you should still be using TV just like with single target.

The only things that really change are your seal, SoT to SoR, and replace CS with DS. Consecration priority also moves up a bit.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Mannstein » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:39 am

Gab wrote:
benebarba wrote:I figured this probably the best place for this occasional ret-playing tankadin to ask: what the heck are we supposed to do with HoPo during AOE periods? I have the 'keep inq rolling' thing down more or less, but occasionally seem to end up in a place where it seems like nothing else changes from single target (unless there are enough to justify using DS). Am I doing it wrong?


With the HoPo (and DP procs) you should still be using TV just like with single target.

The only things that really change are your seal, SoT to SoR, and replace CS with DS. Consecration priority also moves up a bit.

2/3 target - I tend to get 5 stacks of Censure on all, it's possible, just do Single target changing when it reaches 5 stacks.
4+ stacks - SoR and DS all the way. Consecration > HW.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby benebarba » Thu May 24, 2012 10:39 am

Gab wrote:
warden wrote:For all of you protadins on here galavanting around in your offspecs, our very own Anafille wrote an awesome blog post today on her journey from Prot to Ret, and its a great read. Check it out on Ana, Theck and Meloree's blog: http://sacredduty.net/2012/04/02/why-i- ... tribution/


Good read, well written. It echoes some of my same feelings. Although I still enjoy tanking and it will stay my main spec for now, I find myself more and more enjoying melting some face. Every week I look forward to Zon'ozz, Yor'sahj and Hagara and even the Firelands runs to finish our mage's staff where I get to go Ret.

Ret has done a lot of evolution over time and seems to just keep getting better and better (more fun to play) every expansion. It's definitely been a great experience during Cata. Thanks again for all the advice and insight in helping me be a respectable closet Ret.


After joining up with a raiding guild as the OT (read: prot pally who's spending most of the bosses this tier as ret), I'm finding much enjoyment in smashing face and trying to use all these handy utility abilities to keep the MT from going splat. I'm also not dead-last in DPS which is nice :P

question: I am fairly confident that my memorization of the priority queue is not as good as it could be. I've heard clcret recommended - thoughts/comments?


also for the ret-swapping tankadins: on H-Hagara, do you just one-tank the trash and stay ret the whole time? We're going to begin attempts on it, and I usually swap to ret before we pull hagara but after we down the trash. It sounds like that wont be an option on Heroic?
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Rhiannon » Thu May 24, 2012 1:38 pm

benebarba wrote:also for the ret-swapping tankadins: on H-Hagara, do you just one-tank the trash and stay ret the whole time? We're going to begin attempts on it, and I usually swap to ret before we pull hagara but after we down the trash. It sounds like that wont be an option on Heroic?


The trash and the boss aggroing mechanism doesn't change on heroic, you can clear trash as prot and then respec to ret without any issue.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby econ21 » Fri May 25, 2012 3:33 am

benebarba wrote:question: I am fairly confident that my memorization of the priority queue is not as good as it could be. I've heard clcret recommended - thoughts/comments?


I am very inexperienced at Ret (I nearly always tank) and found clcret absolutely amazing. Yes, the ret rotation is rather simple and you could just do it unaided, but I suspect clcret makes most players faster at it and quite a lot of top ret dpsers do use it. I could not imagine using something similar with prot, but for ret, I would strongly recommend it. That said, it won't tell you when to use your CDs and these can have a massive effect on your dps - reading some threads like this one will give you some tips for DS, and anyway improved timing will come with experience.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Fri May 25, 2012 6:18 am

benebarba wrote:question: I am fairly confident that my memorization of the priority queue is not as good as it could be. I've heard clcret recommended - thoughts/comments?


CLC ret is a great reference. But, as mentioned in this thread, even after customization you will often want to deviate from what the add on is suggesting to maximize dps. Mostly concerning when to refresh Inq. This might not be the best example, but during lightning phase it's better to try to save up 3 holypower to refresh your inq right before Hagara gets her feedback debuff then to cast inq on the add if you wont be able to get back up to 3 HP before it dies.

TLDR: Good for refernce but to maximize DPS it shouldn't be followed to the letter.
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby benebarba » Fri May 25, 2012 6:28 am

Thanks for the replies - I may give it a shot as a training aid, until I get a better feel for the priority queue and my options. I've already started getting a better feel for when it may be better to spend a DP proc on refreshing Inq or on Zealotry than dropping an extra TV... getting a timer built into my inq Power Aura definitely helped there. But I occasionally find myself realizing I am not using everything I have when I could and sometimes wasting abilities like HoW during AW.

And WTB less lag on the T13 2pc bonus HP. :P
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Re: Retribution T13 Discussion Thread

Postby Gab » Fri May 25, 2012 6:45 am

benebarba wrote:And WTB less lag on the T13 2pc bonus HP. :P


It does take some getting used to but that is another place where CLC ret is understandably lacking. After judging it takes about 1 second to register the holy power gain and then changes the graphical queue accordingly, giving you very little time to react unless you are accounting for it in advance.

Another thing that helped me is when a DP proc comes at the same time you have 3 HP (or 2 HP and an HP generator off of CD) and require an Inq refresh is to ignore the Inq refresh until after the TV (or until after the HP generator and the TV when remaining inq time allows for it). It's very tempting to hit Inq right when CLC Ret tells you to but you have to be careful as you want to squeeze as much Inq uptime per GCD used to refresh it as possible. Hope that makes sense... I'm not very well written this morning.

EDIT: For clarity. I have my CLC Ret set up to Prioritize Inq refreshes at 5 seconds remaining, so in the situation described above CLC Ret is telling me to refresh Inq but I can still get in a TV (or a CS/Judgment and a TV) under the current Inq because of the DP proc without letting Inq fall off.
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