[Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby rodos » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:23 pm

I still haven't got any raiding done, but from 5-man experience regen is godly. As I've geared up, I just find myself not casting HL as much. If an injured dps is > 50% health I wait out HS cooldown and use that, or wait until he gets hurt a bit more, DL and move on. For the tank, again, I generally wait until a DL would not be over-heal and use that. With good regen you can also spam FoL for a few seconds if something goes bad and recover after. Not spamming HL and being able to FoL when required really reduce the relative value of haste (it's still a good stat, but nothing like it was in WotLK).
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:31 am

Now that I have raided a couple of weeks (have Halfus, V&T, Magmaw, Conclave and BT down), I can say that my experience is tending towards this kind of weighting:

Intellect > Spirit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crit = Haste >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mastery

I concur now that Spirit is almost equal in weighting to Intellect.

In my opinion, both have now become both "throughput" and "regen" stats because more Intellect gives you all the normal stuff (higher initial mana for regen, higher SP for throughput, Crit for throughput, etc) and Spirit now gives you more ability to cast FoL/DL more times which is your throughput increase.

Mastery just seem to be completely.....a non-factor in my gameplay. I rarely notice a bubble. Yeah, yeah, the little symbol shows up on my frames and....oh, wait, it is gone now... Sure, WoL shows some absorbs but it is such a small percentage of my overall "healing" that I just don't see it.

Crit and Haste, on the other hand, still seems to be a gameplay changer.

Crit increases my throughput by a whole 9% (with Conviction) and perhaps, perhaps allows me to not cast that next spell if a crit happens that does enough to keep that DPS at an "acceptable" level of health.

As for Haste, not counting the faster tick time of Holy Radiance, when I cast a Holy Light while in my questing/farming Ret spec, I NOTICE how long it is (little Haste, no -0.5 sec talent) while in Holy, I press HL/DL and then decide where my next cast is going and press it knowing my HL/DL is done/about done.

So, I guess my "new" rule of thumb says:

If the piece has Spirit on it, upgrade. The weighting of the other stats will not matter in the face of the increased amount of Intellect and Spirit on the up-tier piece.

Crit and Haste are better than Mastery as the "other" stat on equal-tier pieces.

If the piece has no Spirit on it, avoid it unless it is equal to or greater than a 2 Tier (26 Item Level) upgrade. Even then, I like the whole "add Intellect plus Spirit together and if they are close or equal, upgrade for the addition of the other secondary stats" that someone mentioned upstream.

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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby rodos » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:18 pm

Hmm. So saying that you would take:

[Winking Eye of Love] - 168 int, 109 spi, 114 crit

over:

[Lightning Flash Pendant] - 190 int, 127 crit, 127 mast

If you consider mastery junk, and reforge, you get +22 int, -59 spi, +13 crit from the epic.

I guess I should roll need on that blue tonight. Besides the stats, the name is far more epic. :mrgreen:
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:15 am

rodos wrote:Hmm. So saying that you would take:

[Winking Eye of Love] - 168 int, 109 spi, 114 crit

over:

[Lightning Flash Pendant] - 190 int, 127 crit, 127 mast

If you consider mastery junk, and reforge, you get +22 int, -59 spi, +13 crit from the epic.

I guess I should roll need on that blue tonight. Besides the stats, the name is far more epic. :mrgreen:


I would, yes.

While the extra Intellect and Crit are good, the downgrade of Spirit is, in my opinion, a killer. If I have the mana (which will be provided by Spirit during an encounter), then my throughput increase is by casting more FoL and DL over my "normal" rotation of HS/HL/WoG/DR.

I don't believe my throughput increase comes from more Haste for faster Holy Light. I comes from FoL/DL and that is only sustained by more mana from Spirit.

Others may be trending another direction, but I am basing my opinion on both my observations from my (abit, limited) raiding experience AND from how Blizzard allocated stats on the Tier-11 gear.

I think there is a reason that none of the Tier pieces no not have Haste on them and I don't think it is because Blizzard hates us. I think it is because they want to try to "force" more Healadins into the style of play that they have redesigned the spec for and I think this is it.

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[EDIT: Because English is HARD!]
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Minarva » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:39 am

I figured I would weigh in on this discussion as someone who has swapped from tanking to holy full-time since the end of Wrath and has done extensive raiding/testing on the subject. Firstly, there seems to be some confusion amongst everyone here about stat weightings, and it is important to stress that it is nearly impossible to have accurate weightings because they depend on playstyle and vary dramatically with gear. I will however attempt to summarise my experience and what seems to be the experience of many from EJ and paragon in particular:

Firstly, int is king still, and is often worth ignoring socket bonuses in order to maximise it. After spirit, haste is king of secondary stats and in many cases can come before spirit (you will see most of us using the band of secret names and reforging the crit to spirit as haste/spirit rings are hard to come by). There are "soft caps" to haste where the value of haste increases momentarily as you approach, which are the holy radiance breakpoints.

#Ticks Haste Needed Rating DF Heroism DF + Hero Duration
10 0.0% 0.0% 0 0 0 0 10.00
11 5.0% 0.0% 0 0 0 0 10.48
12 15.0% 0.0% 0 0 0 0 10.43
13 25.0% 6.0% 773.1 0 0 0 10.40
14 35.0% 14.5% 1859.4 0 0 0 10.37
15 45.0% 23.0% 2945.7 320.4 0 0 10.34
16 55.0% 31.5% 4032.0 1225.7 146.4 0 10.32
17 65.0% 40.0% 5118.3 2130.9 982.0 0 10.30
18 75.0% 48.5% 6204.6 3036.2 1817.6 0 10.29
19 85.0% 56.9% 7290.9 3941.4 2653.2 76.7 10.27
20 95.0% 65.4% 8377.2 4846.7 3488.8 773.1 10.26
21 105.0% 73.9% 9463.5 5751.9 4324.4 1469.4 10.24
22 115.0% 82.4% 10549.8 6657.2 5160.1 2165.8 10.23
23 125.0% 90.9% 11636.1 7562.4 5995.7 2862.1 10.22
24 135.0% 99.3% 12722.4 8467.7 6831.3 3558.5 10.21

This is taken directly from Elitist jerks, with full credit to Nodrak with a source of http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110847-hol ... ompendium/ .
As you can see from, admittedly the poorly formatted, table haste rating has some interesting breaks with holy radiance, which is a significant heal in the majority of raids, give or take a few like halfus. What is important is realising that these are so plentiful that you can't really view them as caps at all, but it might be worth bearing in mind if you find yourself with 1850 haste rating that getting an extra 10 from somewhere would give you an entire tick extra.

As mentioned, there is no spirit cap that is calculable. You need enough (along with intellect, remembering that intellect increases the value of spirit) to keep you going out of mana using a reasonable throughput for the requirements. As for myself, I currently raid 25 man heroics (just started yesterday and killed Halfus after 16 pulls) and I find mana not being overly stressful, although I am significantly more mana efficient/healing done compared to our other holy paladins. With the mana tide nerf however, mana will become more stressful, but I don't think damage in heroics is allowing you to overly prio spirit over haste. You can check my armory at http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/a ... a/advanced and my logs at http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ub271vui1007pqgc/ for a better understanding of how I gear and play for the content I'm at (maintain the thought though that holy radiance for most other fights is a much more significant part of healing done, other than Chimaeron). One thing to note is that I already have a large proportion of divine lights in order to keep up with damage on tanks in the encounter, and have a roughly even amount of healing done through FoL and HL purely because spikes need to be beaten with FoL.

TL;DR

Int >>>Spirit=/>Haste>>>>>>Crit>>>>>>>>>>>>Mastery for myself.

As a final note, don't use the tier gear, its badly itemised and other classes will gain far more from it. The best gear you can get will be int/spirit/haste gear with ideally no reforging, but if you look at my armory posted earlier you can get a good idea of interim gear.

EDIT: To address the OP, haste will always be better than crit. Spirit will always remain better than crit with hardmode damage and MTT nerfs. Consider Crit and Mastery as junk.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:41 am

Minarva wrote:TL;DR

Int >>>Spirit=/>Haste>>>>>>Crit>>>>>>>>>>>>Mastery for myself.

As a final note, don't use the tier gear, its badly itemised and other classes will gain far more from it. The best gear you can get will be int/spirit/haste gear with ideally no reforging, but if you look at my armory posted earlier you can get a good idea of interim gear.

EDIT: To address the OP, haste will always be better than crit. Spirit will always remain better than crit with hardmode damage and MTT nerfs. Consider Crit and Mastery as junk.


Point #1: I totally agree that Haste makes Holy Radiance better; no doubt about it. 773 Haste is dead easy to get in 346 gear. 1859 Haste is a bit of a stretch that you will have to work on to get (reforge, enchant and/or gem for it). 2945 Haste seems out of reach at the moment; perhaps if you are fully 359/372 geared you could hit it but in my current gearing of 345, it is out of reach.

Point #2: Have you raided as a 10-man?

My perception would be in Cata that as a 25-man healer (which I have not done), you have the potential luxury of "job-sharing" healing assignments and being able to maxize your efficiency over, perhaps, your throughput. If you can do your healing assignment with primarily HS/HL/WoG/HR/LoD (our "efficient" spell set) and only resort to using FoL/DL on, say, 1 out of 7 casts or greater (casting FoL/DL once for every 7 other healing spells cast or less often), then maximizing Haste is probably going to do you very well. More Haste means more Holy Light and Holy Radiance, means shorter GCD for Holy Shock means more WoG/LoD casts.

However, I can tell you that as a 10-man raider with a raid group that is getting bosses down but in no way overgear any of the encounters yet (except BH boss), my cast rate of FoL/DL is more like 1 out of every 4 heals casts rather than 1 out of 7 or 8 or 9 because the throughput is just brutal. If I was using the "efficiency" cast set, my heal targets would be eating dirt.

And Haste has little effect on FoL (already fast enough) and while it would help the cast time of Divine Light, I don't really want to be casting it faster because that means I am going OOM faster.

Haste just seems to lose a TON of its appeal if you are casting FoL and DL to increase your throughput.

Point #3: How much do you FoL in raid?

My point being is that if your response to that question is "yuck, FoL sucks and I never use it" then I would submit that your play style is MUCH different than mine. I have to FoL raid members in order to save them from death because if I tried to just use Holy Light (even hasted), it would be too slow and too small of a heal to save them.

Point #4: If I am going to use FoL/DL to increase my throughput (instead of trying to stack haste in order to increase my throughput via Holy Light), then I need more mana and better in combat regen. Thus, I need more Spirit and Intellect and should do everything I can to maximize those two stats.

TL:DR

I wonder about if the whole "Haste is best after Intellect and perhaps Spirit" crowd are primarily 25-man healers (I know the majority of EJ posters are. I keep up with the thread on a daily basis). I think that model fits 25-man raiding much, much better than 10-man raiding.

My observation in 10-man raiding is that there is too much responsibilty for both tank healing and raid healing for any individual healer to not have to consider throughput over efficiency at certain phases of the fight. And to do that, I think that Holy Light cannot be maxized enough to be the "go to" heal for 10-man, FoL and DL will be used and if you do that, Haste loses a ton of its appeal.

I am doing this week's raid having reforged everything away from Haste to Crit and removing Tower of Radiance from my build (with Blessed Life, Eternal Glory and Pursuit of Justice maxxed for Holy Power generation). I will be interested in comparing logs this week to my performance in past weeks in order to see how things compare.

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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Aanar » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:26 am

I wonder how much of the difference in experiences is due to those that have +spirit on use trinkets and combine it with the current mana tide totem and those that don't.

The two that I know of off-hand are the JC dream owl and the one for 1650 valor points. I image those that are working on heroic raids certainly have the valor point ones whereas people just getting going (like me 2/12) do not unless they're a JC.

I know when my resto shaman got her JC owl it made a world of difference.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Epimer » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:53 am

sherck wrote:However, I can tell you that as a 10-man raider with a raid group that is getting bosses down but in no way overgear any of the encounters yet (except BH boss), my cast rate of FoL/DL is more like 1 out of every 4 heals casts rather than 1 out of 7 or 8 or 9 because the throughput is just brutal. If I was using the "efficiency" cast set, my heal targets would be eating dirt.

My observation in 10-man raiding is that there is too much responsibilty for both tank healing and raid healing for any individual healer to not have to consider throughput over efficiency at certain phases of the fight. And to do that, I think that Holy Light cannot be maxized enough to be the "go to" heal for 10-man, FoL and DL will be used and if you do that, Haste loses a ton of its appeal.


I'm a 10 man raider. The only fight I healed on this week was Valiona, but that was with another Holy Paladin (so I'm using him as the basis for comparison here, rather than me, since he is objectively a better Holy Paladin than I am). He managed 12k HPS, while casting 7 Flash of Lights over the nearly 6 minute kill (or 3.1% of his total healing done), and 0 Divine Lights. By happy coincidence, I also cast only 7 FoLs (4.1% of my total healing) and 0 Divine Lights.

From memory, the only times I used FoL were to quickly top someone up who was caught by the flame breath thing, to quickly top someone up who had positioned themselves badly and hence was out of range of the healers for a long time, and to quickly heal some people who were low when a meteor was incoming. Those situations where someone was only a second or two from death were few and far between, and it was rarer still to have such a situation which didn't coincide with Holy Shock being (almost) off cooldown. I don't think it's true to say that 10 man raiders are necessarily forced to use more FoL or DL casts purely because of that raid size, at least in my experience.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:02 am

Epimer wrote:I'm a 10 man raider. The only fight I healed on this week was Valiona, but that was with another Holy Paladin (so I'm using him as the basis for comparison here, rather than me, since he is objectively a better Holy Paladin than I am). He managed 12k HPS, while casting 7 Flash of Lights over the nearly 6 minute kill (or 3.1% of his total healing done), and 0 Divine Lights. By happy coincidence, I also cast only 7 FoLs (4.1% of my total healing) and 0 Divine Lights.

From memory, the only times I used FoL were to quickly top someone up who was caught by the flame breath thing, to quickly top someone up who had positioned themselves badly and hence was out of range of the healers for a long time, and to quickly heal some people who were low when a meteor was incoming. Those situations where someone was only a second or two from death were few and far between, and it was rarer still to have such a situation which didn't coincide with Holy Shock being (almost) off cooldown. I don't think it's true to say that 10 man raiders are necessarily forced to use more FoL or DL casts purely because of that raid size, at least in my experience.


That is good stuff, thanks for sharing. 3 thoughts:

1. 12k HPS? Holy crud; I can only do about 8.5k - 9.0k HPS. Granted, we are still 3 healing all the fights so if we went with 2 healer it would be different but that is some very fine healing; especially since he did not resort to using DL at all and FoL very little.

2. V&T is not a very healing intensive fight; i.e. you rarely have to heal someone up quickly to get ready for the next boss mechanic. The couple of primary mechanics are all execution based and if your raid is doing it correctly, there are very few "oh crud" moments in that fight. Also, tank damage is not very high without the mechanics.

Phase 1: If you all crash together on the dragon's tail to split the damage, Holy Radiance completely takes care of the damage (especially if you have 2 Healadins using it). You can avoid the majority of the flame breath just by reacting quickly. If you stay spread out at ranged, you rarely have to heal quickly from the attack that chains.

Phase 2: Yeah, the ranged group takes some damage but it is not a ton and easily healed through with the use your "efficient" spells.

Transition: Left, middle, right. Raid member responsibility to react correctly. Typically, not healing intensive.

As long as your raid is doing the mechanics correctly, there is very few times on V&T where multiple "specials" are happening at one time and take people to critical health levels.

3. All of my earlier theory and discussion on the relative worth of Haste is so much Bull Chit. I ran some Heroics yesterday and my HPS were almost 2k lower than they had been in my Haste maximized setup. At current gearing levels, FoL cannot be used as much as I was thinking it could be in order to get "fast" heals off and the cast time of Holy Light or Divine Light without the Haste were....terrible. There is no way to react to damage fast enough.

SO, Mea Culpa, my theory was wrong and I have reforged back to Haste (900 without reforging to it, 1700 with reforging to it).

Stat weighting should continue to be:

Intellect >>>>>>>>>>>>> Spirit > Haste >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Crit > Mastery

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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Epimer » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:49 am

sherck wrote:
1. 12k HPS? Holy crud; I can only do about 8.5k - 9.0k HPS. Granted, we are still 3 healing all the fights so if we went with 2 healer it would be different but that is some very fine healing; especially since he did not resort to using DL at all and FoL very little.


We three-healed it but honestly two would have been plenty. He was at 12k, I was at 8k and our new resto shaman was at 6.5k. Those lower numbers are, I think, a reflection of the fact that we didn't need three healers and low HPS is a reflection of not much more healing needed.

For a bigger sample size from this week's raids (data for the other guy, not me, as he's better and actually healed all of these fights whereas I was tanking):

Atramedes - 11k HPS, 11 FoL (6.9%), 0 DL.
Cho'gall, averaged over 9 wipes since we didn't get a kill - ~11k HPS, 87 FoL (3.2%), 17 DL (1.0%).
Conclave - 7.3k HPS, 7 FoL (4.9%), 0 DL.
Halfus - 8k HPS, 8 FoL (3.5%), 1 DL (0.6%).
Twilight Ascendant Council - 12.7k HPS, 24 FoL (13.8%), 0 DL.
Magmaw - 12k HPS, 11 FoL (3.9%), 0 DL.
Omnotron - 10.5k HPS, 18 FoL, (7.6%), 1 DL (0.7%).
Maloriak - 9k HPS, 9 FoL (6.2%), 0 DL.

So really the only fight in which FoL was a significant portion of his healing was our Twilight Council kill. This week, however, we had no interrupts in Feludius in P1 (well, we had me, but I was terrible at it and stopped maybe 1 bolt going off) which would necessitate heavier FoL usage to stabilise someone. And also P3 is a bit spammy. Overall it was a sloppier kill than usual and I imagine that would necssarily up the FoL usage.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Forgrim » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:21 am

Sometimes its really hard to gauge a well done healing job only based on HPS. Typically, I have the assignment of healing the Tank/OT and my fellow priest/druid healing takes care of most of the raid damage so they'll show higher HPS. If I popped Cone and Radiance on Cooldowns, my HPS can go off the charts.

Also, 12k comparison to your 8k seems more like an equipment issue if anything, considering the same amount of heals you used. That, or he has a higher reaction time compared to you to heal others.

I do like that little mini chart you created, showing different healing styles. I have almost never used FL on most of the fights, strangely enough. I almost exclusively chain DL unless its a very low period of damage time. It is however since I consider holy pallys having the strongest single target healing and am usually assigned to a tank that is getting burst down.

I also swap my beacon around every now and then, which does reduce my own HPS.

I do get made fun of my overhealing done all the time (Beacon of Light, Cone, and Self Healing makes up 95% of my OH). Gotta love my pally.

edit: My own HPS ranges from 8k-12k depending on my role in the fight.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Epimer » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:50 am

Forgrim wrote:Also, 12k comparison to your 8k seems more like an equipment issue if anything, considering the same amount of heals you used. That, or he has a higher reaction time compared to you to heal others.


I'm honestly not bothered by the difference. Yes, he has better gear than me (his main spec vs. my off spec), which is noticeable in the effect his higher haste has on the number of spells cast per encounter, but he's also just better at healing than I am, since I heal maybe 2 (raid) bosses a week and he's healing on 9-10, has been MS Holy since forever etc etc.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Minarva » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:24 am

I posted some logs to show where and how I heal in 25, but I can tell you (as I happen to know) that 25s tend to be slightly more AOE healing orientated, but for the most part the same amount of healing is required per healer in 25 and 10. I barely use HL in heroic fights.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ub27 ... boss=44600

This log shows the sort of healing breakdown that I use in the difficult fights (ignore the fact that we have so many disc priests, Halfus is an oddity there but the breakdown is still good), where you can see that divine light has already become king and I am getting more healing out of flash than HL also. I also dismay that you choose to compare gearsets based on heroics (I assume you meant 5 mans). Heroics aren't any test of how good gear and stats are (I mean come on, HPS comparisons in dungeons mean nothing), but at least your conclusion is correct that spirit/int/haste gear is the best.

You must ALL get out of the mindset that meters and HPS makes you a better healer, we are not DPSers or tanks racing against omen. If your assignments don't die, you win. If nobody dies, then the only point of meters is to show who helped other people with their assignments faster. I could quite easily get 15k HPS in most fights by spamming light of dawn no matter if someone is critical or not, and just going around sniping everyone else's assignments. I may do 9k more HPS than everyone else there, but if I was assigned to tanks and the tank died because I was just raid healing than I am holding everyone back.

Haste is better than other stats, holy radiance or not, period. It allows you to react faster to damage spikes, which is so key in heroic raids I cannot stress. It's also amazing for Chimaeron and keeping everyone above 10k. Divine light WILL be your go-to heal when you all start heroic raids, and haste is so godly for it it is insane.

And Haste has little effect on FoL (already fast enough) and while it would help the cast time of Divine Light, I don't really want to be casting it faster because that means I am going OOM faster.

This is flawed logic. You must heal as much as damage taken demands, mana or not. If you are forced to use divine light, its because damage is high enough that holy light is a waste of time, but not flashing because someone won't die in the 0.7 seconds or so difference between the casts. If you continue to spam Divine light after this fact, it should be because damage is demanding it, not because your casts are faster so you can over-heal faster. Mana plays no part in haste being better or worse, and I see this argument alot so I figured I would address this, your heals are just as efficient with more haste or without - they still do the same amount of healing for the same amount of mana.
If your encounters are forcing you to spam FoL, then you are doing things wrong somewhere. FoL does not suck, but it is hardly going to be the largest portion of healing done given the encounters as they are right now. FoL should be doing a similar amount of healing as Holy light, if not less. As Epimer mentions, there shouldn't be that many casts of FoL - even on heroic encounters where damage spikes are king like halfus it was only 8.8% of my healing which I think other than Chimaeron heroic will be the most amount of healing I do with FoL.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Minarva » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:24 am

I posted some logs to show where and how I heal in 25, but I can tell you (as I happen to know) that 25s tend to be slightly more AOE healing orientated, but for the most part the same amount of healing is required per healer in 25 and 10. I barely use HL in heroic fights.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/ub27 ... boss=44600

This log shows the sort of healing breakdown that I use in the difficult fights (ignore the fact that we have so many disc priests, Halfus is an oddity there but the breakdown is still good), where you can see that divine light has already become king and I am getting more healing out of flash than HL also. I also dismay that you choose to compare gearsets based on heroics (I assume you meant 5 mans). Heroics aren't any test of how good gear and stats are (I mean come on, HPS comparisons in dungeons mean nothing), but at least your conclusion is correct that spirit/int/haste gear is the best.

You must ALL get out of the mindset that meters and HPS makes you a better healer, we are not DPSers or tanks racing against omen. If your assignments don't die, you win. If nobody dies, then the only point of meters is to show who helped other people with their assignments faster. I could quite easily get 15k HPS in most fights by spamming light of dawn no matter if someone is critical or not, and just going around sniping everyone else's assignments. I may do 9k more HPS than everyone else there, but if I was assigned to tanks and the tank died because I was just raid healing than I am holding everyone back.

Haste is better than other stats, holy radiance or not, period. It allows you to react faster to damage spikes, which is so key in heroic raids I cannot stress. It's also amazing for Chimaeron and keeping everyone above 10k. Divine light WILL be your go-to heal when you all start heroic raids, and haste is so godly for it it is insane.

And Haste has little effect on FoL (already fast enough) and while it would help the cast time of Divine Light, I don't really want to be casting it faster because that means I am going OOM faster.

This is flawed logic. You must heal as much as damage taken demands, mana or not. If you are forced to use divine light, its because damage is high enough that holy light is a waste of time, but not flashing because someone won't die in the 0.7 seconds or so difference between the casts. If you continue to spam Divine light after this fact, it should be because damage is demanding it, not because your casts are faster so you can over-heal faster. Mana plays no part in haste being better or worse, and I see this argument alot so I figured I would address this, your heals are just as efficient with more haste or without - they still do the same amount of healing for the same amount of mana.
If your encounters are forcing you to spam FoL, then you are doing things wrong somewhere. FoL does not suck, but it is hardly going to be the largest portion of healing done given the encounters as they are right now. FoL should be doing a similar amount of healing as Holy light, if not less. As Epimer mentions, there shouldn't be that many casts of FoL - even on heroic encounters where damage spikes are king like halfus it was only 8.8% of my healing which I think other than Chimaeron heroic will be the most amount of healing I do with FoL.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Aanar » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:27 pm

I healed my first caty dungeon with my Holy Paladin last night, and I think I understand a little better why Paladin healers emphasize haste more than the other healers (I've mostly played a holy priest and resto shaman before this).

Paladins seem much more GCD constrained than my other 2 healers. They're chain casting too of course, but don't have to squeeze in judgement, holy shock, and wog. Mana wasn't ever a problem (which was good because I forgot to buy level 85 water :-O in my rush to get gems and enchants before my LFD group popped)

Conversely, when my other two healers were fresh 85s in ilvl 329, mana was the big problem, not GCDs.

Just my thoughts.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:27 pm

As far as stats, I think Minarva has the right track, playstyle seems to be the driver here, whatever works for you to keep the raid up.

As a10m raider, I will say, I usually post ~ 12k hps, and until 4.0.6 I was able to manage my mana through seal of insight and div plea. My playstyle, as I posted on the how do I heal thread is to hit Holy Shock on every GCD (critical). Otherwise I tend to rely on WoG when avail and Divine Light otherwise. Most of the time I regard Holy Light as completely useless, for the following reason. HL hits for 8.5k-10k, and crits for ~ 14k but has a 2sec cast time. For a tank taking 30k+ hits every 2 secs from a Halfus drake or a Magmaw mangle (upto 80k), HL doesn't cut it and will simply force me to rely on Flash of Light and eat my mana. If the tank/raid are full I sometimes use Holy Shock offensively just to generate the Holy Power to have a full strength WoG on standby. FoL is last resort. I do notice with DL that I can put a non-trivial shield on the tank, allowing me to melee for a moment between casts to recover some mana.

As long as I can manage my mana, I like Haste, but I also note that crit is really nice in conjunction with mastery. And keep in mind we are early in this expansion. Once we all have full gear in 4.1, the mix between haste/mastery and even spell selection may shift. For instance, If I could place a 30% shield on a target with mastery, and crit 30% of the time, then I might think Holy Light might become other than useless.

Tuesday night when the patch hit, I was unhappy. The 10% nerf was really hitting me hard, especially since out mage was unavailable, so my mana pool was lower than normal. I do take sprit food/elixir for raids because normally I have ~100k raid buffed pool. On tues, I got the trinket Jar from BwD, but failed immediately to capitalize on its use. The jar brought me down to 90k raid buffed mana (vs 285 int trinket and mage buff, and loss of 60-int from off-hand enchant) and that combined with 10% increase in DL cost left me perpetually struggling with oom. Yesterday, the mage was back, and I had added the Jar to my DivPlea macro, greatly aiding mana recovery, but I am still annoyed as I am in 355 gear and should probably not have to sweat mana so much on normal modes. I also recall when I was barely in 329 gear and doing heroics with other 329 folks, going oom was always a high risk on boss fights with my then 68k pool and 2k combat regen, so I seriously question how a starter pally healer could avoid getting kicked with the 10% nerf.

I am also considering changing my food/elixir to intellect for the following reason. Yes, my combat regen will suffer a little, but this will be offset by gains through DivPlea and Seal of Insight, as well as providing me a larger initial pool to draw on.

I am only moderately annoyed at the nerf to Lay on Hands. I mean, its a 10min CD, and with forebearance, I can't even use it on a tank thats already used it on himself and now no benefit thu Beacon either is a bit of an adjustment. I also think the forebearance nerf is dangerous for Halfus. A lot of pally tanks like to bubble off their stacks of mortal strike, but if a pally healer panics and drop LoH prior to that, then forebearance would prevent bubbling.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:43 am

Hrobertgar wrote: As a10m raider, I will say, I usually post ~ 12k hps...my playstyle, as I posted on the how do I heal thread is to hit Holy Shock on every GCD (critical). Otherwise I tend to rely on WoG when avail and Divine Light otherwise. Most of the time I regard Holy Light as completely useless


Well, you are a bit better geared than I am (I think you stated 355 gear level where I am at 348); however, you are not the 2nd person to state that you are hitting 12k HPS in this level of gear and I just find that, amazing.

My last two raid nights have me at between 8.5k - 9.0k HPS. Yes, yes, to those out there that says HPS is worthless to a healer I understand what you are saying. But I tend to disagree in that if another healer of my class is putting out 33% more healing than I am than there is something to be learned there.

What is your typical healer setup and what is your typical assignment? I assume from your comments that you are still a tank healer so how much do you help out on the raid?

How much are you meleeing for SoI returns? How often are you using Divine Plea? How much Spirit are you running with? How much Haste?

Just wondering if there is something immediate I can use to improve my healing style. I am typically asked to Beacon a tank and then either heal another tank or raid heal so that may be a difference as well but an extra 33% effective healing is pretty....wow.

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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Hrobertgar » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:57 am

We usually run 1 pally heals, 1 druid, and the 3rd healer is either a priest or a shammy, although for Chimaeron we actually had a ret pally go holy-os as a fourth healer to help with ppl getting gibbed by not getting a heal soon enough after a slime, it was also a big help during the feud phsae.

I typically beacon my tank. I cast Holy Shock on CD (preferentially on a target other than my beaconed tank, as an attack even if the raid is at full health). This allows me to gain free holy power, as well as heal the tank through beacon. Sometimes I save WoG for an incoming boss ability, but only if it is fairly soon, usually I use it freely, also preferentially on a non-beaconed target. Eternal glory does sometimes give me a double proc, for 3 WoG in a row, which is a nice savings on mana while combat regen replenishes me.

When the tank needs heals I like Divine Light, its a decent amount of heals for the cast time and provides holy power (thru Tower of Radiance) when cast on my beaconed target, and usually provides me some time to melee for mana recovery through mastery shielding and keeping my tank near full. After my tank, my primary target for Div Light is the other tank, as the raid should be avoiding big hits for most fights.

I prefer to avoid Flash of Light except for emergencies as it eats mana. I use Holy Radiance when raid is in tight formation taking aoe damage and it can be 100k per cast on 30sec CD, but sometimes also just for the speed rush to get somewhere. I look for an opportunity to hit Lay on Hands about halfway through and encounter or in the kill phase for free heal as well as mana recovery. I look for heavy raid dmg to use Guardian of Ancient Kings, to heal while keeping mana drain maangeable. I also will adjust aura and use aura mastery (even though shammy totems often provide resistance) also to cut down on raid dmg. I also will try to apply Hand of Sacrifice on the tank as he gets near 30% health, then spam DL rather than FoL, again to save mana, although I learned not to do this on the chimaeron fight.

I personally do not like Holy Light, it is too weak for its cast time. For Chimaeron it cannot reliably heal for 10k, which is a big risk for an upcoming massacre or double strike.

For mana recovery, I have a Div-Plea macro.
/cast Divine Plea
/cast Avenging Wrath (also 2min CD with talents)
/cast Illuminated healing? (used to be 50% cost reduction, now crit/haste buff)
/use trinket as applicable
/use trinket as applicable

I generally hit this macro in a non-critical healing moment sometime below 80% mana, lower now that I have 2 trinket abilities, and I look for it on every CD thereafter. In Lich King I had 2 macros, since AvWrath and the Ill Heal 50% reduction were each 3min CDs vs 1 min for DivPlea, now I have just the one macro. I usually continue my normal healing roation during DivPlea, and do not try to switch to Flash of Light to make up for the 50%. Its only a few seconds and the other 2 throughput abilities make up for some of the 50% loss.

I also run with ~3k combat regen using spirit food & spirit elixir, although my new trinket may allow me to switch into int buffs. My understanding is that other heal classes have like 4k+ combat regen to make up for no Seal of Insight, but I am not certain about this.

Finally, I prefer to melee the boss or primary add for any encounter requiring heavy healing.

When I look at recount mana abilities, I want to say melee is often about half my total regen but maybe I have that wrong (sometimes less due to chain heals preventing melee strikes), Div Plea macro usually goes off twice per encounter, sometimes 3 times so with ~100k raid buffed mana pool its usually near 15k each time. Combat regen also contributes a fair chunk on a long encounter. I remember Div Plea is usually my number 2 ability, so maybe combat regen is my top ability, I'll pay more attention when I heal again, probably monday, or definately tuesday.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:19 am

Hrobertgar wrote:For mana recovery, I have a Div-Plea macro.

/cast Divine Plea
/cast Avenging Wrath (also 2min CD with talents)
/cast Illuminated healing? (used to be 50% cost reduction, now crit/haste buff)
/use trinket as applicable
/use trinket as applicable


Divine Favor is what you are looking for.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:32 am

Hrobertgar wrote:How I heal....[snip]


Hmmm...you are healing a bit differently than I am:

1. I use Holy Light much more than you do. I think I still have a bit of a "wrath" mindset in that I need to keep people topped off rather than to wait, melee/Judge, let them drop 40k health and then hit them with a DL. I am instead casting some HL on them. Perhaps I need to rethink this but, dang, DL costs 4x more mana than HL does and only heals for twice more. That just DOES NOT make sense to me.

In other words, I don't see how you are doing 12k HPS unless chain casting DL which would leave you OOM no matter how much mana regen you had. Please help me out htere.

2. Are you casting Judgement on CD for mana regen (or as quickly as possible given health levels?)

3. I am probably not hitting Holy Shock right at CD; my guess would be that my avg cast time between HS is probably at the 7-9 sec window instead of the 6s window. Do you use an addon to indicate when it comes off CD.

4. Obviously, if I tightened up my HS rotation, my Holy Power would generate faster for more WoG casts.

5. Sigh....ToR. I really don't like it because I am typically not healing my Beacon target but perhaps I need to relook it. However, that brings up another question about spec.

- It is obvious that you are taking Paragon of Virtue because of the 2 min CD on AW. You also take ToR. And you take Aura Mastery due to your comments. I am making the assumption that you are taking the "standard" build of Conviction and Sacred Cleansing and Speed of Light and all that other. (Blessed Life? It procs a ton of HoPow for me!)

- What this means is that you are taking more than 31 points in Holy and less than 10 points to spend in the other trees. What of Divinity, Eternal Glory, Crusade or Improved Judgement are you not taking (bye bye PoJ...how I will miss thee).

- Good idea on the Divine Plea macro. I have been aligning my use of Divine Favor and Avenging Wrath more with Holy Radiance to increase that healing rather than using it to counteract DP and have not been using it on CD.

Eagerly awaiting your feedback.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Kedon » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:28 pm

sherck wrote:5. Sigh....ToR. I really don't like it because I am typically not healing my Beacon target but perhaps I need to relook it. However, that brings up another question about spec.


Personally I wouldn't drop ToR for Blessed Life.

I do heal my Beaconed tank almost exclusively though. And this is purely from a 25 man perspective. But with all the free healing we do, PotI and Enlightened Judgements, all this is free healing on the Beaconed tank. Doesn't seem like much of course, but it all adds up.

I still cast about twice as many Holy Lights as Divine Lights, so I suppose I'm not getting all that much Holy Power from ToR. To be fair though, I rarely find myself in need of more. I've never even considered taking Blessed Life for pve. I only recently switched my mainspec to Holy after playing Ret for ages. Random Holy Power procs was one of the biggest issues Ret had before this patch, I really don't want to go back to that. With ToR, I can even plan ahead and make sure I have full Holy Power for a heavy aoe damage phase for example.

At this point, I'd also rather use cooldowns to boost Holy Radiance on something like Feud on Chimaeron, not just to offset Divine Plea. Divine Plea lasting 9 seconds is a big deal, and I feel like I can fit that in if I need it on most fights. Judging almost on cooldown is incredibly important for mana of course. Arcane Torrent and the Archaeology trinket help too. Not really liking Jar of Ancient Remedies so far, might just stick with Core of Ripeness.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:00 pm

My spec is 34-5-2, although i am thinking about moving some from protector of innocent since if got nerfed.

In Ret, I only took Improved Judgement (2), as I don't feel a need to dmg buffs

In Prot, I took Divinity (3) and Eternal Glory (2)

For Holy:
Protector of the Innocent (3), although I may reduce this
Judgements of the Pure (3)

Clarity of Purpose (3)
Last Word (2)
Blazing Light (0), great for my pvp, adventuring holy spec though

Denounce (0), also good for pvp, adventuring
Divine Favor (1)
Infusion of Light (2)
Daybreak (2)

Enlightened Judgements (1/2), I used to have 2, but backed off as 26% hit was useless, and most of the time if the tank is within 40 yards of me, then the boss should be within 35
Beacon of Light (1)
Speeed of Light (3)
Sacred Cleansing (1)

Conviction (3)
Aura Mastery (1)
Paragon of Virtue (2)

Tower of Radiance (3)
Blessed Life (2)

Light of Dawn (1)


I'll try to write more later, we are starting our raid now.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Forgrim » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:06 am

I don't think you should ever reduce Protector of the Innocence because even if they nerfed it, its still a good self heal that transfers over to beacon. And getting a instant holy shock proc, which leads to HS->HS->WoG, that's 3 heals that ticks off PotI, which transfers to beacon, etc. etc.

I think personally, you'd lose lots of benefits from it.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby Levantine » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:13 pm

Crusade increases the healing done by Holy Shock by 30%. I don't know where you got the idea that it was just a damage talent from.
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Re: [Holy] Anyone found soft "caps" to Spirit and Haste amouns?

Postby sherck » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:37 am

Levantine wrote:Crusade increases the healing done by Holy Shock by 30%. I don't know where you got the idea that it was just a damage talent from.


Yeah, I was wondering about that.

Holy Shock should be your most cast spell. I need to work harder on training myself to cast it on CD...I bet I could generate an extra 100 HoPow over the course of a 3 hour raid if I just cast it on CD.

A 30% boost to a spell you should cast 9-10 times a minute; 50-80 times in a typical boss encounter, is a pretty good use of 3 talent points.

I follow Hrobertgar's spec exactly with the following 2 exceptions: I take 1 point out of Last Word and 2 points out of Improved Judgement in order to put 3 points in Crusade.

I ran this spec for the first time on Wednesday and tried to change my playstyle completely. Things that I tried to do differently Wednesday:

- Stayed in melee range whenever possible for SoI procs.
- Cast my Divine Plea/Avenging Wrath/Divine Favor/VP trinket "on use" macro on CD.
- Holy Shock on CD
- Judge on CD (harder with only a 15 yard range)
- Only cast Divine Light as a timed heal spell. No Holy Light (which was TOUGH!)
- Use Lay on Hands pretty much on CD for mana returns
- Use Arcane Torrent on CD
- Used Holy Radiance much more often but did try to "save" it if a boss mechanic called for it at a certain time.
- Crusader Strike if nothing else was needed for the GCD
- Only use HoPow on WoG.

I see the potential of this playstyle; my mana returns were suprisingly good and I was rarely worried about mana even with Divine Light being my primary "go to" spell. My HPS was only in the 9k range (not 12k like noted above) but that may be a product of my gear...I only had 2 epics for that run (crafted shield, drop belt) so most of my gear is 346.

Anyway, look into Crusade if you try to Holy Shock on CD. It is a good use of your talent points.

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