Prot PVP @ 85

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:44 pm

I partnered with a hunter for a month or so when I started up cata arenas. Sadly I think hunters are pretty much the worst class in pvp right now. I have yet to meet one, even good ones, that I had a hard time with. If they are kiting me, I have the pet as a battery while I get to them.

On the other side of the coin, they don't have the burst damage they used to. Its very easy to get in their dead zone where their melee skills have been destroyed. They just aren't threating to another class thats attacking them back.

My (old) partner was pretty much usless if he got focused no matter what I did to help him. We usually won if we could burst (ha!) down someone before he died or left them low enough I could get them before CD's came back up.
Sonic
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:47 am

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:58 pm

Kelaan wrote:Agreed on the potential for Zealotry + WoG, though. /shiver. Calvin and I have nearly never lost to a team with a Ret paladin, though -- probably because all the skilled ones have gone to higher rating brackets? :D


Nah, they're all playing Prot!

I haven't tried 2's with a Hunter so I'm not sure on what they're strengths are like when paired with a Prot Paladin. I've done games with Warlock/Spriest/Frost Mage at the 1800 bracket before and they all seem to work quite well. Like I said though, the best partner has some self sufficiency. The Blood DK thing was initially a joke, we never actually thought we could get to the rating we're at. I've also found WoG to be my biggest finisher for holy power, in almost ALL situations. If there is a DPS focusing my DK and I'm on the healer then I'll liberally use WoG on my partner. This lets him stack necrotic strikes instead of Death Striking.

I've healed for about 200k in the span of 15 seconds due to Zealotry/Divine Purpose. It's a filthy mechanic for WoG spam, that's a major concern. If they made threat matter and scaled back the way ret can spam WoG randomly in PVP then I think the 20 second cooldown would be completely abolished.

I'm going to start PVPing Ret in 3's this weekend but still speccing PVP prot each week to see if we can jump over 2300. Problem is I need to regem a fair bit or else I'm squishy by comparison.

I forgot one piece of advice that I pretty much liberally follow for 2's. Charge in and Hammer someone almost as soon as you can, even if you're going to run away there is a good chance people will assume you're Ret and blow their PVP trinket Immediately. My other comment would be on SoT, no argument that it's the best DPS seal but does it ever conflict with your partners Trap? Would SoR be more beneficial since you could swap targets that way? I used to do 3's in BC with a hunter when I played MS warrior and we had to be very careful of Deep Wounds for traps.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:30 pm

Sonic wrote:They just aren't threating to another class thats attacking them back.

This may be why we seem to have luck when I and my partner are both beating on the healer, despite him taking damage. If he can kite, awesome, but the healer is rarely in his deadzone, and often his snares/silences help me kill the healer.

Vort wrote:... the best partner has some self sufficiency.

Agreed! This is part of why I keep Divine Guardian: 6 seconds of cooldown on my partner. (It's pretty miniscule.)

Charge in and Hammer someone almost as soon as you can, even if you're going to run away there is a good chance people will assume you're Ret and blow their PVP trinket Immediately.

What else would they use their PvP trinket on? The snare from AS? (I normally do that first so I can use it again once GC procs.) I guess it opens them up to other things that my partner can apply.

Does {Seal of Truth} ever conflict with your partners Trap? Would SoR be more beneficial since you could swap targets that way?

YES IT DOES. >_< We communicate a bit more now, though, and he usually is trapping the other target. I hadn't thought about SoR, though - is the damage similar? If I'm not glyphing for expertise, how different is the damage? Frankly, I usually like having the DoT to break stealth on people, but it ultimately comes down to numbers I can apply to reducing their health, and I'd use SoR if it were better.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 2551
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:36 pm

Kelaan wrote:What else would they use their PvP trinket on? The snare from AS? (I normally do that first so I can use it again once GC procs.) I guess it opens them up to other things that my partner can apply.


Most PVPers save the trinket for something they NEED to break, if you force a break early it means the next HoJ they won't have a break for and it could be when they're at 50% hp rather than 100%. I know I usually save my trinket for something vital rather than something trivial. If I get HoJ'd in PVP I'll usually eat it unless there is a chance of death for myself or my partner. People often see a paladin with low mana and assume they're Ret and as soon as the hammer goes off they trinket because they expect massive burst damage coming. This messes up the timing they have on their trinkets as you'll get two consecutive HoJ's with no breaks. From there you can either push with HoJ off cooldown to push them further on the back foot, or you can save it for things like Aura Mastery.

Kelaan wrote:I hadn't thought about SoR, though - is the damage similar? If I'm not glyphing for expertise, how different is the damage?


I'm at work right now so I can't do the exact testing with my setup. But I'm pretty sure there is a numbers value somewhere around. I know it's less overall damage than SoT, but it's certainly an alternative if it breaks CC.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:42 pm

SoR has higher judment damage vs non-stacked Truth and it's also going to be less after the 5 stack on hit also. Truth is better overall but it's decent damage if you don't need the extra healing. I can't imagine you NOT needing extra healing in a double dps setup though.
Sonic
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:47 am

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:02 pm

Sonic wrote:SoR has higher judment damage vs non-stacked Truth and it's also going to be less after the 5 stack on hit also. Truth is better overall but it's decent damage if you don't need the extra healing. I can't imagine you NOT needing extra healing in a double dps setup though.


This is the reason why I run almost exclusively with SoI and have it glyphed. I very VERY rarely switch to SoT, and the only other seal I find myself using is Justice as the debuff is critical to catch druids and shamans. SoR is the second highest DPS seal we have, Truth being way ahead of everything else, but Righteousness being well above Justice and the non damaging Insight.

Also keep in mind if you aren't being attacked by melee that you're going to go OOM if you spam all of your abilities off cd. This is why I like to keep insight up rather than anything else if possible. It tops me up from AoE damage and keeps my mana at maximum if I need to spam FoL for whatever reason. Radiance costs a LOT of mana but shouldn't be neglected since it's around 10k HP for yourself and your partner if they're close enough.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:03 am

Sonic wrote:I can't imagine you NOT needing extra healing in a double dps setup though.

If I can't push enough damage out to net a kill before it's 2v1 (or shortly thereafter), healing doesn't help me much. I'll swap to SoI later in the fight, but since it's almost 10% of my damage on a single target it's tempting to use it even then. It depends a lot on my opponents, I guess. If I get focused first, defensive cooldowns + an unmolested hunter means that we get a kill relatively quickly. If my hunter gets focused, I'm not taking enough damage to warrant SoI right now.

At higher brackets it will likely change. However, I'm noticing it in 3v3 also. We can't push out enough damage with just me + hunter, a lot of the time, and I haven't seemed to be able to heal enough to matter. Our disc priest went shadow and our win rate doubled (1/10 to 1/5 ;)). Our best matches were when I was able to get a healer low, force a trinket with a HoJ (plus low health), and then do it again later with wings up. I also noticed kiting healers a LOT more in 3s, so Windwalk is even more tempting - I just can't yet justify the expenditure. :(

edit:
Great point about radiance's costs and merits. My partner rarely seems to be close enough for it to work, but I still forget to use it. I normaly cast DG first, and heals later. FoL seems to not work well for me - by the time I can cast it once or twice, my partner's basically taken as much damage as I healed. Would divine light be better? (Soo slooowwww.) I'll have to macro them together so that I can use a modifier to pick which one I'm using.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 2551
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Kelaan wrote:Great point about radiance's costs and merits. My partner rarely seems to be close enough for it to work, but I still forget to use it. I normaly cast DG first, and heals later. FoL seems to not work well for me - by the time I can cast it once or twice, my partner's basically taken as much damage as I healed. Would divine light be better? (Soo slooowwww.) I'll have to macro them together so that I can use a modifier to pick which one I'm using.


Which is why I use my holy power almost exclusively on WoG.

I have a macro that I hit religiously when my partner is getting focused.

/target Thqrxoxo
/cast Word of Glory
/targetlasttarget

WoG's my parter on my GCD, keeps my current target and lets me keep focus.

FoL is better HPS than Divine Light by MILES if you aren't specced for it, it's just less mana efficient.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:54 pm

Kelaan wrote: If I can't push enough damage out to net a kill before it's 2v1 (or shortly thereafter), healing doesn't help me much. I'll swap to SoI later in the fight, but since it's almost 10% of my damage on a single target it's tempting to use it even then. It depends a lot on my opponents, I guess. If I get focused first, defensive cooldowns + an unmolested hunter means that we get a kill relatively quickly. If my hunter gets focused, I'm not taking enough damage to warrant SoI right now.


Yeah whenever i was with my hunter partner he always got focued. His gear was meh so he was way to squishy. I've now been doing 2s with a affliction lock and disc priest. Mostly with the lock, alot of our matches have people splitting between us oddly enough.

Generally I find myself under fire more often than not though. Guess the people i run into hate prot paladins.
Sonic
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:47 am

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:50 pm

Sonic wrote:Generally I find myself under fire more often than not though. Guess the people i run into hate prot paladins.


A lot of people think you're ret just using a shield for defensive purposes. And it's great when the vengeance starts stacking up and you're able to WABLAM! SMASH THINGS GOOD!
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:43 am

Vort wrote:/target Thqrxoxo
/cast Word of Glory
/targetlasttarget


Can you rewrite that as /cast [@Thqrxoxo] Word of Glory ? It ought to prevent you from losing white hits on your current target with the target switch. (I may be barking up the wrong tree, if you don't actually lose the swings.)
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 2551
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:16 am

Pretty sure I'm not getting white swing loss on my current target, it simply casts the WoG without any targeting changes from my end. I'll test on a dummy in a sec to confirm but I've used a similar macro since Vanilla to do this kind of thing and I haven't noticed a decrease in dps etc.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Levantine » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:42 pm

It does change your target and change it back, you just don't see it on screen because it's done instantly. I don't remember whether changing targets actually reset your swing timer, I don't think it does from memory. WoG used to, but doesn't anymore either.
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 7367
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:35 pm

I've been thinking about replacing my 2nd trinket. I've been using Badge and Insignia. Insignia is the weaker of the two. And once the patch hits with resilience scaling more linear its only a 3% loss to damage reductions.

Hurricane seems to be the best choice for raw damage but it costs a bloody fourtune. I have an herb gatherer and could have someone mill one out but the chance of getting the cards can drive you insane. There's also the thought of how long it will last. Ilvl scaling might simply outclass it next season.

I'm hoping for a ZG/ZA str trink but I highly doubt there will be one (data mining isn't finished yet). Wouldn't that be awesome though. A remade Zandalarian Hero Charm that has str and on use dmg boost. Stack it with badge and wings... 2minute prot paladins :p
Sonic
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:47 am

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Central » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:35 am

Kelaan wrote:
Vort wrote:/target Thqrxoxo
/cast Word of Glory
/targetlasttarget


Can you rewrite that as /cast [@Thqrxoxo] Word of Glory ? It ought to prevent you from losing white hits on your current target with the target switch. (I may be barking up the wrong tree, if you don't actually lose the swings.)


you could also use @arenapartner1 in the event you run with someone else.

If you are changing targets you are probably losing white hits.
Central
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:24 am

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:12 pm

Tested it out on a target dummy and I'm not losing time on white swings. The only issue is like most Australians, the GCD sometimes initiates without casting due to client to server response. Client side my target is in range or in line of sight but server side is a different story.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
Vort
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:17 pm

Necropost!

So, I've been pvping again, as prot. I've noticed that while it's almost impossible to die if I have a healer, I generally don't have enough throughput to threaten anyone that has a healer. So, I am finding that I pretty much ought to group with another DPS player, so that we can at least kill someone. I wish I had friends or people on the server willing to try double prot, as that sounds funny, if suboptimal.

In the meantime, I'm just about honor capped, but saving it for 4.3. I haven't bought a 359 weapon yet, as I'm trying to save up for a 378 one before points are reset. (I'm not optimistic that I can do it in time.)

The other dilemma is, should I be going ret (or even holy) instead? That would influence weapon choice. I enjoy prot, as I know the rotation so well, and feel like I know my toolbox well, but on the other hand I feel like I have so much more flexibility as holy or ret. Probably ret, as then I can do PvE ret too. Ugh. Decisions, decisions.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 2551
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:38 am

I finally got my new Paladin to 85 and started running random BGs again. I still enjoy prot, but some things seem much less fun at 85 than they were at lower level.

The main one is healing - in randoms I'll rarely be healed, so I'm reliant on self healing, but heals that used to take me up by 10% health or more at lower levels now barely move my health bar. Even Holy Light with the Crusade proc does pathetically low amounts of healing. Not sure what happened to the scaling between 75 and 85, but it sucks.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4910
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:02 pm

Crusade procs heal me for something like 15% of my health - it's a lot. I use it mainly while soloing (when I remember). I don't use it in arenas though because I always get interrutpted, or take more damage than it heals. Word of Glory, though, tends to heal me for a pretty significant amount - I just wish it were usable more often. I tend to use WoG almost exclusively.

I'll have to see if I can work a good macro for holy light, and set up a power aura so that I can see when I get a Crusade proc, though.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 2551
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Schroom » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:52 am

well with the recent changes to vengeance, I'm really thinking about doing some prot pvp. as this stacks now incredibly fast the burst seems to be just amazing. Towelliee is having fun with this too and did already a video about this (please hit me)

but well I got a couple of questions.

1. as vengeance is now stacking faster is stamina stacking now the better choice? Or is strength still the stat to go for?
2. would a change weapon macro be viable to execute the CS's with a two hand sword, and switch back to one-handed + shield for every shield ability? I mean hey. 317% weapon dmg on CS with a two hand mace (I'm a dwarf)? woohhooo.
3. is there any S11 pvp shield? if no what shield should I use?.

edit: Just checked the numbers:

30 Stamina = 507 HP - 10% = 50,7 AP
Strength: 20 strength * 1,05 * 2 = 42 AP

with now almost permanently having 100% vengeance HP seems to be THE choice to go for.
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:09 am

Interesting thought, but I wonder if it's worth taking the big hit to your damage when you're not being focused. I know prot damage is pretty poor without vengeance anyway, but any hope you might have had of taking someone down who's not attacking you would go out of the window if you swapped all your strength for stamina.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4910
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Schroom » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:46 am

the secret would be to dare them to hit you ^^ as towelliee calls his new series "please hit me". so of course if you run behind a flag carrier who just tries to flee without fighting back. you can't stack vengeance, but running behins a flag carrier all alone is always fail anyway.... the thing is that 2-3 styles from any enemy is about enough to get 100% vengeance now. so as soon as anyone dares fighting back you burst him to the ground. Can't access YouTube here from work but just search for "please hit me" on YouTube, a video on tgn by towelliee shows pretty well what changed.

I would love an answer for 2. and 3. tho as I'm not that experienced with prot in pvp. but I will definitly give it a try one of the following days (as soon as I get a day off of pve progress in DS ;-) )
User avatar
Schroom
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:56 am

Weapon change macros are tricky to work with, particularly if you think you're going to do something like macro it into a finisher. For example, if ShoR misses you still want your shield equipped, if WoG procs Eternal Glory you'll want to follow up with ShoR. AS might come before CS most of the time but also comes before ShoR sometimes.

I can see it locking you out of abilities a lot of the time if you're nto very careful with it.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4910
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:54 am

Is it not possible to put the weapon equip part of the macro at the beginning of the ability you want to use it for? Thereby equipping (or "re-equipping" it if you miss) the weapon you want, instead of trying to equip what might be the next weapon for your ability sequence.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3585
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:27 am

Equipping triggers the GCD.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 4910
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

PreviousNext

Return to Off-specs & Other Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest