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Prot PVP @ 85

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:55 pm

Yeah the cooldown on WoG-heals will seriously screw us up and will make us pretty much unviable in any composition in 2v2. They are only going to nerf prot with bigger cooldowns, no guaranteed holy power and stuff like that. It looks bad for us in pvp and pve. Its rediculous rogues selfhealing gets buffed etc. Basically: we're screwed.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Levantine » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:40 am

Holy crap people don't actually read the patch notes do they. Rogue self healing didn't get buffed. They increased the base healing of Recoup to 3% (from 2%) and lowered the talent increase to 1% (from 2%).

2+2=4
3+1=4
4=4

Srsly. (PS this is a talent that all good PvP Rogues take for the DR at the very least)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:43 am

Levantine wrote:Holy crap people don't actually read the patch notes do they. Rogue self healing didn't get buffed. They increased the base healing of Recoup to 3% (from 2%) and lowered the talent increase to 1% (from 2%).


Okay, you got me there. I did read a short version of the patchnotes and didn't check on all class-patchnotes. We are still getting nerfed big time tough. I mean, our selfhealing will be less, our mitigation will be less and our damage is already less.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:30 am

We're not too concerned with keeping Protection viable in PvP. We know some players enjoy it... It’s a great goal to make all of a class's specs viable in PvP, but it's not always possible to do so and paladins have other options.

Raaaaaaaaaaaaaage >_<

It's frustrating when a rogue outheals AND outdamages me. I'm not saying they were buffed, merely that it hurts to see their selfhealing stay the same (and very potent when played well!) while ours is reduced significantly. :-(
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby DexterBelgium » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:15 am

I absolutely hate "the sky is falling" type posts. But that blue response has really ruined my day.

"We’re not too concerned with keeping Protection viable in PvP. We know some players enjoy it, but the majority of Prot paladins are more concerned with their ability to tank, and that’s where we spend most of our Protection design effort. It’s a great goal to make all of a class’s specs viable in PvP, but it’s not always possible to do so and paladins have other options."

This, after finally being able to see that there is another half to this game, having that being taken away so whimsically. And the insult added to the injury: "paladins have other options"... like holy... and holy... and holy... or why don't you try holy? Ret? Naah, we're nerfing them too. Srsly, have you considered holy?

It's the same thing they said of Pally PvE in vanilla (you can be holy or holy if you want to raid). If it wasn't a blue posting it, it would be a nasty nasty troll...

Here's hoping they see the light before 4.1. I don't want to be holy. If I wanted to heal I'd do so (but I suck at it and don't enjoy it).
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:36 pm

I dont know what their idea is about "ability to tank" but no guaranteed holy power, 20sec WoG cooldowns and longer mitigation cooldowns aint gonna help a shit with that too.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:57 pm

So haven't been on the maintankadin fourms in a while, saw this thread. Wow. Alot of great info and the link to taugrimms page is awesome. I always enjoyed prot pvp and was kinda sad there wasn't much dicussion on it on the offical fourms other that "prot sucks."

Couple questions for you guys. My paladin is a human, so i don't need the trink. Currently I'm using both the Insignia and the Badge for trinkets. General comments are the insignia is a waste, what would be a good replacment for it?

Also landslide is not quite aviable to my guild nor do i see it up for sale. What's a good poor man's altertanive to that? Back to berzerking?
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:55 pm

First off, make sure your shield has a Titanium Plating enhancement from Blacksmithing. This is a MUST if you intend to chant your weapon with anything other than a Weapon Chain, it gives you the disarm reduction which is vital when rogues/warriors and even shadow priests get a disarm on you.

As far as prot chants go, I'm not a fan of anything for PVP other than Windwalk. The number of times I've had 132% movement speed save my life in 2's is pretty critical. The alternative to Windwalk really depends on what you're going to be doing as Prot PVP. Rated BG's? Arena? Casual? I don't like the idea of berserking since you're taking additional physical damage due to the Negative Armor it gives you. Mending may be an alternative considering you're usually going to keep SoI on a lot of the time for self healing. I have considered it, but kept my tanking weapon with Windwalk. Also your best race for PVP prot is actually Draenei, 20% of your HP is a LOT more than 20% of say a Ret paladins HP.

The highest we've had our 2's team at so far was 2250, but since I picked up a Zin I'm going ret and my DK partner and I are looking to do 3's and put our scum cleave (prot paly and blood dk) on hold for now. For 2's I went with maximum survival and for this I stacked stam/resil and stam/str gems in gear with around 3600 resil and roughly 145k hp unbuffed. In the comp we run I'm usually the focus target and against any makeup we have to just weather the storm and then strike back when we've got the advantage.

You are NOT a DPS. Prot has amazing survival and decent support abilities and you need to play as such. If I use all of my focus on damage I will lose in most situations. Your primary role in BG's is guarding flags in AB/Gilneas and making sure no one caps which you can do VERY well, running the flag in Twin Peaks/Warsong is another strong point of yours. The longer you fight the stronger you get except against some classes.

As far as trinkets go for you, just use ones with resil. You need resil like you need air to breathe. Remember your role in arena/bgs, you are a flag running, interrupting, lockdown, damn near unkillable monster. Let the DPS have their killing blows, at the end of the day when you kept 7 of the enemy at bay on a flag in AB the rest of the map is taken by your team.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sonic » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:52 pm

I'm familiar with the basics. Though with bezerking, it's only a 5% loss on armor isn't it. I'm using mending currently though it seems... weak.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:27 pm

Sonic wrote:I'm familiar with the basics. Though with bezerking, it's only a 5% loss on armor isn't it. I'm using mending currently though it seems... weak.


I'm not gonna mention how often I've been at sub 10% in 2's. With 5% armor loss I'm pretty sure I'd be dead in those situations. As weak as mending is, it's still better than Berserking tbh. You aren't there for a DPS increase, and any additional self healing is preferable to another 300 damage on your CS. You don't take the 10% armor from talents because you need them for HoJ and JotJ, so don't neglect the 5% armor. That can equate to a damage intake from all other physical classes that could make or break the fight.

Like I said before the only reason I'm sticking with Windwalk is due to the run speed buff, it makes catching people much easier without a proper snare.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:19 am

Sonic wrote:Also landslide is not quite aviable to my guild nor do i see it up for sale. What's a good poor man's altertanive to that? Back to berzerking?

Avalanche seems cheap. Haven't considered it in comparison to zerking, though.

Vort wrote:As far as prot chants go, I'm not a fan of anything for PVP other than Windwalk. The number of times I've had 132% movement speed save my life in 2's is pretty critical.

Innnnteresting. How does the speed boost with snares like frost traps or Descration? Do they multiply? Unholy DK teams /destroy/ my partner and I because they just kite the heck out of me. (Tips are welcome.)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:02 pm

Who is your partner Kelaan?

How do you spec/glyph?

What kind of strats do you usually follow?

Windwalk is superior for several reasons, when you get it inside of a movement impairing effect it's not going to break you out of it or anything but it will assist slightly. If an unholy DK is on you, you have only 1 option since kiting is almost impossible with desecrate. You are going to be punching on with his pet, and self healing like a monster, I VERY rarely swap from Seal of Insight in 2's any more and only do so if we're focusing a druid/shaman. Chasing anything down that kites (Hunters/Mages) the proc is absolutely vital, 132% movement speed is amazing. The windwalk can proc from Judgement so it's like having a Long Arm of the Law proc and it's won us several games. The other main reason for Windwalk over all other chants on your weapon is very simple - you are NOT a dps, so any mobility assisting procs are welcome over something that lets you hit slightly harder. We have never won a game by dishing out more damage than the enemy, we win via attrition and nothing but. After the enemy has expelled as much energy into killing us, we return everything right back at them.

Kelaan wrote:Unholy DK teams /destroy/ my partner and I because they just kite the heck out of me.


Odd, I've never had an unholy dk attempt to kite me, they usually sit either one of us until they realize their healer is going to oom and then they try switching. As soon as the switch goes out, the person they are now targeting goes into self heal mode and free player gets on the healer.

Some more information on your setup would be good, an armory link to your profile would help if you've got PVP prot spec/gear on. I know what seems to work best in my setup after much testing and napkin maths, your comp might be vastly different so hit me up with some links and I might have some insight.

We're at 2275 right now, we had a few unlucky losses this week (I blame my DK for not realizing his Icebound Fortitude didn't cost Runic Power and he got killed inside a stun >.<) and last night was a good 8 for 1- the last game was a loss. I've specced Ret for 3's which my partner is finding a healer for, so all of my gems/chants went from prot style to ret and the result was a much MUCH squishier Vortimosa /cry.
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Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:15 pm

Vort wrote:Who is your partner Kelaan?

How do you spec/glyph?

What kind of strats do you usually follow?


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/hyjal/kelaan/advanced
(In my pvp gear, surprisingly. I sold my trinkets back as I believe I will have enough points this week to get two trinkets, so I've been 'renting' them when we do matches. I've had good results this week with the on-use +Str one, since we almost never face mages, and are low enough rating that we've never been spellstolen. ;))

I'm partnered with a hunter. He used to be SV, now is Marks. (Kings + TSA is nice, at least.)

We normally aim to burn down the healer, as rarely can we control them long enough to prevent them from healing their partner. Cålvin (my partner) seems to almost always be the focused target, so I normally will drop HoSacrifice and a bubble on him, as well as heals when I can. Rarely, he can kite their DPS partner while I work on the healer; lately I've been using Holy Power on ShoR rather than healing, in preparation for the upcoming WoG nerf.

If an unholy DK is on you, you have only 1 option since kiting is almost impossible with desecrate. You are going to be punching on with his pet, and self healing like a monster...

I VERY rarely swap from Seal of Insight in 2's any more and only do so if we're focusing a druid/shaman.


Because I'm normally not a DPS target until my partner is dead, SoI seems somewhat useless on me: I can't seem to stop and heal him (FoL, DL) fast enough to be worth anything. Perhaps I should try it more, but for now results seems to be best when I play like DPS. Because my partner is kiting so much of the time, I often end up doing more total damage than he does. I still stack resilience where it seems reasonable, but tend to gem/enchant/gear for damage.

The matches we win seem to be the ones where my partner survives long enough for one of us to kill an enemy, and the ones we lose are the ones where it's two vs me. I seem to do really well when hugging a healer for interrupts and silences, but it gets hairy when the other team has a frequently-applicable snare or CC (fear, MC, earthbind, desecration, frostbolt). I'm planning to write some macros so I can Gift of the Naaru my partner more easily, too.

Windwalk is superior for several reasons... Chasing anything down that kites (Hunters/Mages) the proc is absolutely vital, 132% movement speed is amazing. The windwalk can proc from Judgement so it's like having a Long Arm of the Law proc and it's won us several games.

That sounds REALLY good. Healers that kite are a bane, and I've sorely missed Long Arm of the Law's speed boost.

Kelaan wrote:Unholy DK teams /destroy/ my partner and I because they just kite the heck out of me.


Odd, I've never had an unholy dk attempt to kite me, they usually sit either one of us until they realize their healer is going to oom and then they try switching.

For us, the DK tries to beat on my hunter, hunter kites away, and I can't keep up because the DK is leaving desecrations in his wake the whole time. When it's DK+healer vs me, either one can get out of melee range of me, so I can't control either one. When I don't have frequent snares on me, Pursuit of Justice seems to be enough... but I think I'll try Windwalk. I haven't yet dropped the (relatively large) money on the AP enchant, so I'm still using the semi-ghetto Avalanche enchant for extra damage. (I'm using the PvE weapon because I get more resilience from buying trinkets, and the damage range is the same as the good pvp weapons.)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:15 pm

Seems pretty sound.

Hunter certainly doesn't sound like the best class to be paired with, no offense to your hunter intended of course. I think we work best with a Blood DK because they are self sufficient and can still dish out the hurt, at least that's what I've experienced so far even in the 2200-2300 bracket.

Spec looks about right, I usually drop DG and 1 point in SotP for 2 points Reck. When I am the focus target, any additional self heals via Insight is a bonus and I found that switching to Reck let me deal with all sorts of physical classes. This probably isn't the case for you as you're needing to DPS down a target since you're rarely the focus.

I still use a Soul-Blade with windwalk on it for PVP Prot, so you're not wrong in keeping a PVE DPS weapon. The DPS is high and it has favorable stats for you.

Kelaan wrote:lately I've been using Holy Power on ShoR rather than healing, in preparation for the upcoming WoG nerf.


I'm still somewhat skeptical of the change going in as is, and why not use it while you can? I also found out after playing ret for even just a crazy short time why they want to change WoG, but they're still not fixing the real issue which is Vengeace and as I recently saw first hand - Divine Purpose and Zealotry. With multiple procs of that stuff you can WoG spam like absolute crazy. Ret paladins can output 15-20k HPS in PVP with luck, which is just absolute insanity. In 3 GCD's you can have a Divine Purpose go into an Eternal Glory for another WoG, so let's assume you get 1 crit out of 3 with Selfless Healer you're going to heal for over 100K in 5~ seconds. I still think the problem lies with the abilities that WoG benefits from, Vengenace/Divine Purpose/Zealotry. Just fix Divine Purpose to only include Inquisition and Templars Verdict, and Vengeance needs a nerf in general.
Ilyashattack wrote:best ret pally, best prot pally, best jewish paladin, ugliest blood elf haircut person

Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:34 pm

Vort wrote:Hunter certainly doesn't sound like the best class to be paired with...

My impression was that we work well with a melee person, esp one that can selfheal or has extra mitigation -- double prot, etc. Hunter isn't so bad -- we have won several matches where he's been able to swap targets from someone he's kiting to a healer that I've been working on. A ranged partner helps a lot in that regard. I imagine that a warlock, DK, or mage would be more effective. ;) However, I can't complain - he's a friend that I enjoy playing with. Once his DK is higher level, he may be amenable to PvPing on him, I'll ask then.

I usually drop DG and 1 point in SotP for 2 points Reck. When I am the focus target, any additional self heals via Insight is a bonus and I found that switching to Reck let me deal with all sorts of physical classes. This probably isn't the case for you as you're needing to DPS down a target since you're rarely the focus.

My spec was very WoG focused, per Taugrim's advice. Now that WoG's eating a nerf (and I don't use it nearly as much), I have not reevaluated my glyph choices yet. (I use SoTruth enough that glyphing it probably makes sense, and lets me reforge for crit instead.)

I did not spec Reckoning, thinking that (as you noted) I rarely am attacked. However, it might help a LOT in a 1v1 scenario. I'll think about it; I guess I've never noticed how often I block in PvP -- looking at my character screen the other day, I have ~25% block, which is more than I thought I would have. I'll have to balance that with most of my damage being on people that aren't attacking me, though (healers, or people focusing my partner).

I'm still somewhat skeptical of the change going in as is, and why not use it while you can? ... Ret paladins can output 15-20k HPS in PVP with luck, which is just absolute insanity.

Ah the joys of Avenger's Shield silences. :D Yeah, I still abuse WoG whenever I feel it's useful (better to win than Win Properly ;)), but I've been playing with much more of a DPS mindset. Previously, I would dump almost all my holy power on healing Calvin, whereas now I will pop wings + Str trinket and beat on a healer.

Agreed on the potential for Zealotry + WoG, though. /shiver. Calvin and I have nearly never lost to a team with a Ret paladin, though -- probably because all the skilled ones have gone to higher rating brackets? :D
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