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Prot PVP @ 85

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:27 pm

Crap, I was already afraid you would ask that question so I would have to read it all again ^^

Taugrim says glyph of WoG (increases WoG healing by 10%) is mandatory, but it should be noted that this depends on your setup. I am running with a healer (which isnt ideal) so I got 3 damage boosting glyphs.

Seal of Light IS usefull for a short duration to get your mana back when you canceled Divine Plea for a WoG (/cancelaura) if you are playing against a composition who cant make you block so you dont get your mana back from that and you are using your heals/AoE. Besides that its a very usefull seal in PvE, I use it most of the time when chainpulling heroics. (Taugrim says its just crap to use EVER (PvE and PvP), I find it has situational benefits over SoT in PvE and PvP).

Seal of Judgement has some uses (ghostwolf, travelform).

As far as his spec goes: Divine Guardian is kinda lame in 2s, but I can see him takeing it since his shaman has no shieldwall-like abilities. It acts like a Divine Protecion for his ally. Hallowed Grounds is lame too anyway. For the rest it looks the same.

Furthermore I dont agree that yellow sockets are best used to put resilience in it. 20 res and 20 something else to get a socketbonus okay, but I would prefer a critgem over a resilience gem anyway. I am at 3387 resilience and I found myself in need of crit more often then in need of resilience.

About his part on trinkets: The "use" trinket is so much more valuable because thats where prot paladins shine in PvP. Its on 2 minute cooldown and can be paired with wings. Taking the "chance on hit" trinket is a big mistake if you ask me unless you are a Human and dont need an Insignia of the Alliance/Horde.

On the metagem: Requirements of Chaotic will be fixed to 2 blues minimum soon.

Some of the macro's are unneeded, but it depends on your UI if they are usefull or not. To me most aren't.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:19 pm

Thank you for the link to Taugrim's blog. That was awesome and concise. I may have to spec specifically for PvP, now... I hope I can live without Ret spec. We'll see.

My question is about gear. Right now I am mostly in crafted gear, with two honor pieces (hands,cloak?) and the conquest point shoulders. I don't PvP often, so I don't have a massive honor point income right now -- mainly because I get on and raid or do dungeons instead of PvP, most nights. Should I fill out the Set Pieces first, regardless of blue/purple-ness, or should I spend my Conquest points on set pieces and Honor points on non-set pieces? I'm leaning towards the former, since it gets me the 4-piece bonus sooner, but it makes me cry a little to think that I'll be replacing the blue set pieces with purples eventually.

Also, right now I'm sticking with my Lava Spine + Elementium Earthguard, despite there being PvP ones I could buy, since they're basically clones of the PvP ones, aside from resilience itemization. I think that's a solid plan, since the weapon DPS and max damage are the same on the pvp weapons.

I wonder if I can get my partner to pvp on his DK instead of his hunter. ;) Probably not, which makes some of the reverse kiting that Taugrim talks about more challenging.

edit: on the matter of honor farming ... what's a good way to do that? I tried running random BGs, but the extra honor doesn't matter if our team doesn't win. =/ Are any of the maps well suited towards alliance, or to my role as a paladin? (CTF maps seemed to work wellsome of the time, but other times it's just an exercise in Who has A Healer. :( )
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby taugrim » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:31 pm

Central wrote:http://taugrim.com/

He is pretty much the authority on Prot PVP. Has gotten nearly 2200 this season running with an enh shaman.


We're around 2040 atm in 2v2, and I don't expect we'll get to 2200 due to the high number of Mage/xxx or DK/xxx comps.

Mages are nuts in PVP now, they have high DPS, high survivability, and high CC. Mage really feels like two classes worth of special abilities LOL. We run into Mage comps back-to-back-to-back in 2v2 and if the Mage is competent and decently geared they should beat us. It makes scaling the ladder difficult.

We just started 3v3 this week and broke 2k in 61 games. We haven't hit our ceiling yet :)

Sleetza wrote:Taugrim says glyph of WoG (increases WoG healing by 10%) is mandatory, but it should be noted that this depends on your setup. I am running with a healer (which isnt ideal) so I got 3 damage boosting glyphs.


Are you talking 2v2 only? I end up offhealing a ton in both 2v2 and 3v3.

Sleetza wrote:Seal of Light IS usefull for a short duration to get your mana back when you canceled Divine Plea for a WoG (/cancelaura) if you are playing against a composition who cant make you block so you dont get your mana back from that and you are using your heals/AoE


You can switch to SoI to get mana back faster, although I tend to use my cooldowns in PVP on abilities instead of Seal rotating.

In 4.0.6 with the buffs to SoT, SoT will be even better.

Sleetza wrote:Besides that its a very usefull seal in PvE, I use it most of the time when chainpulling heroics. (Taugrim says its just crap to use EVER (PvE and PvP), I find it has situational benefits over SoT in PvE and PvP).


FYI.

You want the Expertise bonus from glyphed SoT, because you don't want a boss/mob to parry because it will get an immediate attack back on you. I'm not alone on this one, most PVE raid tanks are running glyphed SoT for boss and trash pulls:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020823291

The heal from SoI is quite small, only procs from some of our attacks (auto-attacks), and isn't a guaranteed proc. In PVE mana management with Judgement isn't an issue and you won't be spam casting FoL except situationally.

Sleetza wrote:Seal of Judgement has some uses (ghostwolf, travelform).


Absolutely.

Sleetza wrote:As far as his spec goes: Divine Guardian is kinda lame in 2s, but I can see him takeing it since his shaman has no shieldwall-like abilities. It acts like a Divine Protecion for his ally. Hallowed Grounds is lame too anyway. For the rest it looks the same.


I tried 1/2 Reckoning and 0/1 DG, and I was really disappointed with the meager DPS increase from Reckoning. It's too bad it doesn't proc off our attacks like it did in 3.x.

Sleetza wrote:Furthermore I dont agree that yellow sockets are best used to put resilience in it. 20 res and 20 something else to get a socketbonus okay, but I would prefer a critgem over a resilience gem anyway. I am at 3387 resilience and I found myself in need of crit more often then in need of resilience.


I run with: Str, Str/Crit, and Str/Hit gems. No Resil - what I have from gear and socket bonuses is sufficient.

Sleetza wrote:About his part on trinkets: The "use" trinket is so much more valuable because thats where prot paladins shine in PvP. Its on 2 minute cooldown and can be paired with wings. Taking the "chance on hit" trinket is a big mistake if you ask me unless you are a Human and dont need an Insignia of the Alliance/Horde.


You can't use Wings in a lot of Arena at least due to the number of Mage comps. I have both trinkets and I prefer Insignia over Badge for Prot. For other specs, I'd prefer Badge (e.g. like my partner the Enh Shaman).

Sleetza wrote:Some of the macro's are unneeded, but it depends on your UI if they are usefull or not. To me most aren't.


Macros/keybinds are highly user-preference dependent. I have found a setup that allows fluid movement in most situations while allowing me to use skills on-the-move.

Let me know what other thoughts you have around Prot PVP. Always interested to hear people's perspective.

- Tau
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:25 am

taugrim wrote:You want the Expertise bonus from glyphed SoT, because you don't want a boss/mob to parry because it will get an immediate attack back on you.

The heal from SoI is quite small, only procs from some of our attacks (auto-attacks), and isn't a guaranteed proc. In PVE mana management with Judgement isn't an issue and you won't be spam casting FoL except situationally.


This is offtopic for the PvP discussion, but ... We have not confirmed that any bosses actually get hasted attacks when they parry: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=27934&rb_v=viewtopic If they don't actually get hasted attacks from parries, Expertise is purely a threat stat. Also, SoI may be low amounts of healing, but did 15% of my healing taken on the last Omitron fight, more than any other heal (by any healer) other than Word of Glory and my holy paladin's Divine Light. Last week, it healed as much as earth shield and more than Rejuv. It's powerful in PvE.


I run with: Str, Str/Crit, and Str/Hit gems. No Resil - what I have from gear and socket bonuses is sufficient.

I'm inclined to think the same; a gear upgrade from crafted -> honor, or honor->conquest, is more resilience than a gem, and people tend to focus my partner before me anyways, which means that my meager damage contribution is something I think I want to maximize.

Thanks a ton for your guide. I have it pinned in my browser at home and at work. (: Do you have any tactical suggestions for Prot/Hunter? We can't reverse kite or pillar-hump the way you and your shaman do, and I realize that the synergy isn't that good.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby yappo » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:24 pm

Been fiddling around with PvP the last weeks.

Comparatively standard 0/31/10 (ie my "thou shalt not kill me" -spec) and stacking resilience like there's no tomorrow (around 3.5k resil now). Hit and exp to cap.

Results:

It's absolutely fantastic in battlegrounds. Hit the center of crap, target a pet (yes, pet, not player) and start spamming HoTR for absurd AoE damage. Healers hate evenly spread damage all over the place. If you manage to make the opponents angry enough at you they'll actually follow you into a corner. I never imagined it was possible to tank players. This works surprisingly well in TB as well (even though you tend to get overwhelmed faster there when people decide to get rid of you).

It works so-so in arena (2v2 only, haven't triend anything else). So, I've only done the games needed to cap CP those last weeks, but it's rather clear that casters eat me and my PvE-geared surv-hunter for breakfast. Melee (unless said hunter is killed) do little to no damage at all. However, do NOT, repeat NOT, face off against another prot pally. After some 40 minutes the match ends automatically with neither team getting anything. Around 50% win, but I guess we're meeting equally crappy teams as ourselves.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Vort » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:06 pm

That reminds me. I need points this week!

Now where did I put that MT of ours?
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Gárrosh wrote:You have rung a bell which cannot be unrung. Gladiator Astral and The Scum Cleave are an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression. Can you stop an unstoppable juggernaut of oppression? No you can't it's unstoppable.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:25 pm

yappo wrote:do NOT, repeat NOT, face off against another prot pally. After some 40 minutes the match ends automatically...


I've had good track record vs other paladins. I think I used SoI for healing, and hammered him repeatedly; good AS proc luck helped too. I probably had more resilience than he did, which meant that he was taking more damage than I was, but I also used all of my damage reduction cooldowns.

So basically luck and a poorly geared opponent. ;)
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby yappo » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:40 am

Kelaan wrote:
yappo wrote:do NOT, repeat NOT, face off against another prot pally. After some 40 minutes the match ends automatically...


I've had good track record vs other paladins. I think I used SoI for healing, and hammered him repeatedly; good AS proc luck helped too. I probably had more resilience than he did, which meant that he was taking more damage than I was, but I also used all of my damage reduction cooldowns.

So basically luck and a poorly geared opponent. ;)


I'm afraid I was the 'poorly' geared pally in that match. Poor meaning well over 3200 resilience. We just couldn't get the other anywhere close to actual killing range.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:49 pm

taugrim wrote:Mages are nuts in PVP now... if the Mage is competent and decently geared they should beat us.

Last night I was trying to get my 3's healer some extra matches, so I went into 2v2 with Prot+restodruid. One match was versus Mage/Disc. My partner died extremely fast, as she has nearly no resilience, but I proceeded to stay alive for something near another five minutes - had I been able to keep the healer in combat, I would have been able to prevent them drinking.

How well would Prot/Holy work (both paladins)? Holy seems to have some decent burst, when healing isn't critical, and our druid was thinking that swapping to paladin might make our 3s (Prot/hunter/[druid|paladin]) easier. She's starting at zero resilience for each of them, so it might be moot for a while, but I'm curious what you think.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:50 pm

taugrim wrote:
Sleetza wrote:Taugrim says glyph of WoG (increases WoG healing by 10%) is mandatory, but it should be noted that this depends on your setup. I am running with a healer (which isnt ideal) so I got 3 damage boosting glyphs.


Are you talking 2v2 only? I end up offhealing a ton in both 2v2 and 3v3.


Yes I talked mainly about 2v2 because thats where most of my experience comes from. I do end up offhealing sometimes, altho I run with a restodruid. The times I could have used that little extra burst from a damage-glyph occur much more often then situations where that 10% WoG-healing would have saved my healer. And apart from that, if its needed we made a mistake to get him in that position most likely (LoS, positioning, unstealthing).

taugrim wrote:
Sleetza wrote:Seal of Light IS usefull for a short duration to get your mana back when you canceled Divine Plea for a WoG (/cancelaura) if you are playing against a composition who cant make you block so you dont get your mana back from that and you are using your heals/AoE


You can switch to SoI to get mana back faster, although I tend to use my cooldowns in PVP on abilities instead of Seal rotating.

In 4.0.6 with the buffs to SoT, SoT will be even better.


Are you referring to global cooldowns? I am not sure what you are referring to here. I sometimes swap seals when I am chasing somebody, to me its not worth the global cooldown either. For damage SoT is obviously king of the hill but there are times where other seals have their uses.

taugrim wrote:
Sleetza wrote:Besides that its a very usefull seal in PvE, I use it most of the time when chainpulling heroics. (Taugrim says its just crap to use EVER (PvE and PvP), I find it has situational benefits over SoT in PvE and PvP).


FYI.

You want the Expertise bonus from glyphed SoT, because you don't want a boss/mob to parry because it will get an immediate attack back on you. I'm not alone on this one, most PVE raid tanks are running glyphed SoT for boss and trash pulls:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1020823291

The heal from SoI is quite small, only procs from some of our attacks (auto-attacks), and isn't a guaranteed proc. In PVE mana management with Judgement isn't an issue and you won't be spam casting FoL except situationally.


Mobs parrying isnt an issue as long as long as you dont bring either undergeared or underskilled players. And if you bring those you shouldn't chainpull heroics. When chainpulling I dont prioritize Judgement. And if I use divine plea at the start for the holy power and thus is on cooldown when I could use it for manaregen I sometimes endup going OOM when solotanking heroic bosses. Especially slow attacking ones. Bottomline: I use SoL mostly for manareturns if I endup going OOM somehow or when shit hits the fan (soloing Altairus on heroic mode comes to mind lol).

taugrim wrote:
Sleetza wrote:As far as his spec goes: Divine Guardian is kinda lame in 2s, but I can see him takeing it since his shaman has no shieldwall-like abilities. It acts like a Divine Protecion for his ally. Hallowed Grounds is lame too anyway. For the rest it looks the same.


I tried 1/2 Reckoning and 0/1 DG, and I was really disappointed with the meager DPS increase from Reckoning. It's too bad it doesn't proc off our attacks like it did in 3.x.


The Divine Protection for our allies is probably more usefull then the small dpsboost is. Altho I tend to go with reckoning for the same reason I dont use glyph of WoG. Not 100% convinced for either talent tho, especially in 2v2. In 3v3 its already like two Divine Protections and in 5v5 its like 4.

taugrim wrote:
Sleetza wrote:Furthermore I dont agree that yellow sockets are best used to put resilience in it. 20 res and 20 something else to get a socketbonus okay, but I would prefer a critgem over a resilience gem anyway. I am at 3387 resilience and I found myself in need of crit more often then in need of resilience.


I run with: Str, Str/Crit, and Str/Hit gems. No Resil - what I have from gear and socket bonuses is sufficient.


I was referring to the part in your prot pally pvp guide where you recommend 40 res gems too. I could see the use for it when you are still gearing up and dont have all pvpgear yet but str/crit or str/hit is the way to go.

taugrim wrote:
Sleetza wrote:About his part on trinkets: The "use" trinket is so much more valuable because thats where prot paladins shine in PvP. Its on 2 minute cooldown and can be paired with wings. Taking the "chance on hit" trinket is a big mistake if you ask me unless you are a Human and dont need an Insignia of the Alliance/Horde.


You can't use Wings in a lot of Arena at least due to the number of Mage comps. I have both trinkets and I prefer Insignia over Badge for Prot. For other specs, I'd prefer Badge (e.g. like my partner the Enh Shaman).


Tbh I never had my Wings gotten spellstolen yet. But you are probably less in need of more damage because you are running with a dps-shammie. I am running with a healer so the burstdamage is all we got since our damage is lower then warrior's for example. Most of our 2v2 matches are won by bursting down people while the restodruid/HoJ keeps the other guy CC'ed while I pop my cooldowns on my target. And even thats RNG, no crits no kills mostly.

taugrim wrote:Let me know what other thoughts you have around Prot PVP. Always interested to hear people's perspective.

- Tau


:) I really find it awesome you take time to talk with the community and not just stand there on your soapbox shouting down whats best. Together we'll improve. /highfive

Kelaan wrote:
How well would Prot/Holy work (both paladins)? Holy seems to have some decent burst, when healing isn't critical, and our druid was thinking that swapping to paladin might make our 3s (Prot/hunter/[druid|paladin]) easier. She's starting at zero resilience for each of them, so it might be moot for a while, but I'm curious what you think.


Running with a holy paladin could be viable I think but it wouldn't be my choice. Its basically the same as resto/prot as I am playing currently but restodruids have good CC-abilities holy/prot paladins lack. Exorsismspam is nice tho, but thats the same as wrathspam I believe. It might get interesting when Rebuke gets baseline, two paladins could pretty much spelllock a healer/caster till death.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:19 pm

Yeah ... for a beginning pvp healer, it sounds like druid might be easier -- with cyclone, roots, and shifting. How does your druid play? Start off stealthed? Do they attack in cat form, ever, or just pop out straight into healing? 3s are seeming to be brutal, in that two DPS can beat down either of my partners and I can't really do much about it, and then it's 3v2 and again, two DPS is more than I can handle, esp when they have a healer.

Do you guys have any suggestions? We all three are pretty much noobs at pvp, but I feel like there's not much I can do for my hunter or druid. HoP doesn't last long, and so forth.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby econ21 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:56 am

I'd be interested to hear how people are finding Prot PvP after the 4.06 patch. From PvE, it seems our damage has gone up. But for PvP, I wonder if CS/HotR misses not generating HoPo will nerf us - given that players often seem to have higher avoidance than mobs? And I wonder how Darkmoon Card: Hurricane looks now.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby Sleetza » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:56 am

Kelaan wrote:Yeah ... for a beginning pvp healer, it sounds like druid might be easier -- with cyclone, roots, and shifting. How does your druid play? Start off stealthed? Do they attack in cat form, ever, or just pop out straight into healing? 3s are seeming to be brutal, in that two DPS can beat down either of my partners and I can't really do much about it, and then it's 3v2 and again, two DPS is more than I can handle, esp when they have a healer.

Do you guys have any suggestions? We all three are pretty much noobs at pvp, but I feel like there's not much I can do for my hunter or druid. HoP doesn't last long, and so forth.


All those abilities doesnt exactly make a class easier to play in my opinion :P But a paladin has plenty of stuff to do other then healing too (HoS, HoP, Hoj, Cleanse, Excorsism spam etc.). The shifting/travelform makes it easier to stay alive while undergeared probably. My resto starts off stealthed and pops out when I need heals or to burst the last 20% of someones hp. Havent seen him doing much kitty.

econ21 wrote:I'd be interested to hear how people are finding Prot PvP after the 4.06 patch. From PvE, it seems our damage has gone up. But for PvP, I wonder if CS/HotR misses not generating HoPo will nerf us - given that players often seem to have higher avoidance than mobs? And I wonder how Darkmoon Card: Hurricane looks now.


In PvP its easy enough to get hitcapped. In PvE however it will make hitrating more valuable then it was before (before it was so unneeded). Getting CS on cooldown without a holy power generated can seriously screwup your rotation I guess...
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby yappo » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:38 am

econ21 wrote:I'd be interested to hear how people are finding Prot PvP after the 4.06 patch. From PvE, it seems our damage has gone up. But for PvP, I wonder if CS/HotR misses not generating HoPo will nerf us - given that players often seem to have higher avoidance than mobs? And I wonder how Darkmoon Card: Hurricane looks now.


Given that I grabbed (almost) 5% hit and 20 expertize out of routine (think threat-set) I can't say I've noticed anything but my damage going up.

CS/HotR change has only impacted my tanking in any measurable way, which obviously is a different thread.
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Re: Prot PVP @ 85

Postby econ21 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:52 am

yappo wrote:Given that I grabbed (almost) 5% hit and 20 expertize out of routine...


Yeah, me too. I guess I was just spooked by this post:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... 20#p644056

It does raise the question of player avoidance in PvP: I meet L85 hit and exp caps, but it seems some classes have stuff that makes them a little more slippery to land a blow on.
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