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[Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby rodos » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:28 pm

Mannstein wrote:
rodos wrote:This was somewhat expected. Theorycrafting on the original PTR value (2.5%) put the new mastery way ahead of crit and haste. Mastery is supposed to be a good stat, but not to the point of making the others junk.


The issue (that i fail to grasp) is that if this stats (crit/hast/mastery) are all iqual, what is the need for reforging?
I mean, i understod and liked aiming to a stat till you get aprox. "X" value, then reforge for the others...
Currently the only need i have for reforging, if for dropping expertise, hast/crit is "almost" irrelevant...

Given that ret can't soft-cap their haste any more, and since Conviction went to Holy, you're probably right that haste and crit are more or less equivalent for that spec and there's no reforging required. However, for a lot of specs that's not really the case. There are sweet-spots in haste that make rotations better, and having a certain amount of crit to keep a crit-based buff or debuff rolling.

Tanks also have the option to reforge between parry and dodge to make the best of diminishing returns, even though these stats are similarly effective at first glance.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Fearonir » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:28 pm

Sorry I missed the replies and questions of me.

Regarding the mastery > hit question someone asked. Hit is very important, let's face it, but since you get an automatic 8% spell hit as soon as you choose Ret as your focus tree, hit isn't too horrible of a concern for spells. And since Exorcism is amazingly OP with Inquisition up (read that as up to 45-50k Crits with AW and items procs), mastery would pull ahead.

With the recent change to the mastery (2.5 down to 2.1) mastery moves much closer to being on par with crit and haste, but still slightly ahead. The value of mastery at that point will only go up higher, and I believe that the value of haste will also increase as Mastery does, since HP generation (or a large portion--more reliable portion?--of it at least) is tied to Crusader Strike, you'll want as much haste as possible for more CS hits which translate to more HP and TV hits which further translates to more Hand of Light hits.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:47 am

What dps are people averaging in heroics with around 346 gear? I have a ret offspec that I very rarely use (i.e. about 4 times since Cata), but have been disappointed with my dps - it averaged 7k on heroic Halls of Origination. The main spec dps in my guild can now get around 10k in their heroics, which I understand is a decent benchmark to aim for prior to raiding (we have not started yet). My trinkets are poor, and I use 4 pc PVP gear for the strength bonuses, but generally I think my gear is pretty good (all available rep gear; well gemmed & enchanted). I have no doubt some of my poor performance is due lack of familiarity and skill, but would like to know what retadins in comparable gear are capable of.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby majiben » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:37 am

All my items are enchanted, reforged, and gemmed. I'm in full 346 gear or higher PvE gear excepting one 333 str trinket. I pull 12-14k on a favorable boss fight. My baby destro lock at 329 ilvl average, half enchanted, one quarter pvp, one quarter spirit gear puts 11-12k on a heroic boss fight. Needless to say I was quite disgusted with ret after that discovery and have trouble playing it as a result.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby econ21 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:41 am

majiben wrote:I pull 12-14k on a favorable boss fight.


I wonder, do you know what do you average over the course of the entire heroic?

BTW: how do you find out your dps on a specific fight? I use recount but haven't figured out how to do that out yet.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Sapria » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:55 am

I do anywhere from 8-10k on trash and maybe 11-13k on bosses. My highest so far has been 15k on the untankable boss upstairs in HoO. You can see my gear on my sig link. I'm like il 337 avg. I do more LFD than running with guildies and the tanks don't always mark, so I can't go all out if I don't know what target the tank is on, so I'm a little low on the DPS b/c of I that I think.

I'm not sure in Recount anymore, but in Skada, there is a way to keep only Boss segments and then you can show only last fight, choose a particular boss fight or overall, I can't remember anymore for Recount though, sorry.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:28 am

With support from Elitist jerks (with figures and testing), and my current experience with 8raid bosses done, i believe that after the patching there except for stg there is no golden stat...
I cannot say what someone must do, but i can say what i'll be doing:
1) Gem for Strengh
2) Reforge for hit cap
3) Reforge for Exp
After this three steps i'll reforge in order to balance my mast/crit/haste. my objective is to have the 3secundary stats as equal as possible, with mastery pulling slightly ahead.

Fearonir wrote:Sorry I missed the replies and questions of me.

Regarding the mastery > hit question someone asked. Hit is very important, let's face it, but since you get an automatic 8% spell hit as soon as you choose Ret as your focus tree, hit isn't too horrible of a concern for spells. And since Exorcism is amazingly OP with Inquisition up (read that as up to 45-50k Crits with AW and items procs), mastery would pull ahead.

Our hit capped is 8% this is 1st stat you should aim with reforging, more that 8% is as good as spirit = garbage.
Mastery is slightly better that crit/haste but the key word here is "slightly better".

Fearonir wrote:With the recent change to the mastery (2.5 down to 2.1) mastery moves much closer to being on par with crit and haste, but still slightly ahead. The value of mastery at that point will only go up higher, and I believe that the value of haste will also increase as Mastery does, since HP generation (or a large portion--more reliable portion?--of it at least) is tied to Crusader Strike, you'll want as much haste as possible for more CS hits which translate to more HP and TV hits which further translates to more Hand of Light hits.


This is true but what you said can/should be applied to crit...
There is a magic number for haste that it's 4k rating, until you can get there (T14?) haste is "+/- equal" to crit and mastery.
As is our current rotation is:
CS->Filler->filler->CS
The added haste will "only" apply to the situation that there isn't anything to use (And Censure ticks and...).
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:53 am

Sapria wrote:I do anywhere from 8-10k on trash and maybe 11-13k on bosses. My highest so far has been 15k on the untankable boss upstairs in HoO.


I think i'm at 345* ilvl, i can't for sure tell you my dps, but in raid:
Good Rng: Second to last, -20%damage/DPS that a Warlock or Druid.
Bad Rng: Barely above the Tank, -40/50%damage/DPS that a Warlock or Druid.

In Hc's random is at his best... good procs and you start to believe your DPS is good, but in raid where the fights take more minutes, the random is reduced and you are back to "Try to outdps the tank". (And that Vengeance is wicked)


IF you have a good weapon you can see the diference... but imo it's bad or Worst :D
Give me my patch :D

(At recount, you have a cogwheel where you can chose current fight or what combat do you want to see)
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:19 am

econ21 wrote:BTW: how do you find out your dps on a specific fight? I use recount but haven't figured out how to do that out yet.


Click the icon on the title bar of the Recount window that looks like a piece of folded paper -- it's to the right of the gear. (Right click? I forget.) This gives a list of past fights. I normally set it to "Current Fight", as I never care about overall data. By default, Recount only saves the last 5 fights, but you can open the options and tell it to remember more. I usually keep 15ish or so, as it makes looking at all the boss kills in an instance easier.

You can also right click the left side of the header and get a popup of Damage Done (I prefer this over dps), DPS, healing done, healing taken, deaths, etc. The deaths log is especially awesome, as it shows how everyone died.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby warden » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:01 pm

Once Blizz finalizes their numbers for the mastery bonus and any other changes they plan to make in 4.06, I'll re-write the guide located farther down in this fourm. Let me know if there are specific sections that you'd like added and I'll make sure they're included.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby majiben » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:12 pm

Mannstein wrote:Mastery is slightly better that crit/haste but the key word here is "slightly better".
I think you might be giving out advice for 4.0.6 rather than the current patch. Under current conditions, mastery is the worst stat for ret and is only worth ~70% haste or crit (which are neck and neck).

As far as overall for a run, that varies wildly from heroic to heroic and is not a stat I'm too concerned about. I much prefer to look at my interupts per run. I have this one shaman who keeps beating me at that. Damn their 5 second CD!
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Levantine » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:21 am

Nerf Shaman!
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:30 am

majiben wrote:
Mannstein wrote:Mastery is slightly better that crit/haste but the key word here is "slightly better".
I think you might be giving out advice for 4.0.6 rather than the current patch. Under current conditions, mastery is the worst stat for ret and is only worth ~70% haste or crit (which are neck and neck).

As far as overall for a run, that varies wildly from heroic to heroic and is not a stat I'm too concerned about. I much prefer to look at my interupts per run. I have this one shaman who keeps beating me at that. Damn their 5 second CD!


My bad.. you are right... i was talking post patch.
Pre-patch:
Crit=haste>mast
(Crit is verrrrry slightly better that haste)
Pos-patch:
Mast=crit=haste
(mastery is very slightly better that crit/haste)

My question is:
IS anyone thinking in doing reforging into haste/mastery/crit?
Unless my gear has 1stat very low in relation to the others, I won't be doing any of it...
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Aanar » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:02 pm

It seems like that crit, haste, and mastery all being very cloes to equal will make life a lot easier for gearing. It seems like any combination of stats would be a useful piece of gear then unless you're flooded with more hit & expertise than you can reforge away, or caught not being able to reforge enough things to bring those up.

As an example, for my elemental shaman gear set, a Crit/Mastery item is about 83% as good as a Haste/Mastery one. 83% isn't huge, but it makes some of the properly itemized ilvl 346 blues nearly as good as poorly itemized ilvl 359 ones.

For my holy priest, mastery is almost twice as good as crit, and spirit is so much better than anything other than int, you're left with the only good items being spirit/mastery and spirit/haste. And when that's not what is on a tier piece especially, you're left scratching your head whether the set bonus is worth it.

So I'm envious that ret is that close to even. (maybe I'll have to play my pally some more!) :)

On the other hand, having crit=haste=mastery so cloes to even would take away some of the fun from moving to getting any drop in a current tier to getting the BiS item.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:12 am

Aanar wrote:It seems like that crit, haste, and mastery all being very cloes to equal will make life a lot easier for gearing.

So I'm envious that ret is that close to even. (maybe I'll have to play my pally some more!) :)

On the other hand, having crit=haste=mastery so cloes to even would take away some of the fun from moving to getting any drop in a current tier to getting the BiS item.


What is easier for some, it's boring to others... :D
After patch, you get a retri pala that (warning: Exageration) only has to look to the Stg and ilvl of the item to chose which is better...
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