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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:21 pm
by rodos
Kelaan wrote:
Mannstein wrote:Gem for Strenght.. Reforge for Hit>exp>haste.

Thanks for saying it so succinctly. Should I be prioritizing hit/exp more than haste? The rotational difference seems large.

I'm pretty sure hit/exp are much better to cap.

The rotation shouldn't really change on "long" (i.e. non-trivial) fights, it just gets slower if you have less haste. You really never want to CS-filler-filler-CS because you're always delaying the CS and hence HoPo generation.

Cronus wrote:I see a change for ret next patch. Exorcism should not be our nuke spell. Its procs are not reliable and w/o proc it’s an uncomfortable wait for it to cast.

You should never ever be long-casting Exorcism unless you're forced to be out of melee range. It only hits half as hard and will stop your auto-attack. Even accidentally hitting your Exo button without AoW proc and immediately canceling it by Esc or moving will be a dps loss due to reset swing timer.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:55 pm
by d503
Mannstein wrote:Haste is your friend but Strenght is still you best friend...
Gem for Strenght.. Reforge for Hit>exp>haste.


Good point - I should've clarified what I do in practice. Haste is my go to reforge stat if Hit and Expertise are already capped. Gemming is Strength, pretty much all the way, unless you have a decent socket bonus you can match.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:51 am
by kennywu
After playing Ret for a week (I switch dps/tank roles in heroics for breaks) I've come to this:

Haste is key to getting CS to 3 sec CD, but that number is hard to reach atm. Until I get better gear with more haste, I keep my haste low so that I am able to do 2 abilities between CS. Yes, there are some moments when I have every ability on CD and I'm waiting for CS or something else to come off CD, but with procs and secret sauce we have plenty to do.

Let me elaborate more on my playing style and rotation (which I hit 12K+ dps on 10 man Tol Borad boss these past 2 weeks). Lead in with Judgement. It not only gives a niffty speed boost, but is buffs us with haste. Always keep Inquisition up. My first 3 Holy Power charges are spent on Inquistion. It's a pain to spend 3 HP on it, but the boost it gives to our dps is worth it. I use Power Aura to show me when it's up and a timer so that I can refresh it before the buff falls off. When I have initially get the Inquisition buff, I pop wings and use Hammer of Wrath as one of my fillers. I then go thru my CS -> filler -> filler rotation where priority on fillers is HoW > Exo > HW > Judgement. When wings expire, I then use Zealotry. Right before Zealotry buff expires, use the last CS3HPgenerator to refresh Inquisition. While dpsing, if a free Exo procs and I have 3 Holy Power, I always cast TV first because the Exo may proc a charge of Holy Power.

There are going to be times when all of our ablilities are on CD and we have no procs, but we're Paladins! We have the seceret sauce. When times like the above happen, I use Divine Plea, FoL self heal, FoL heal party/raid members, or use any of my Hands when the situtation calls for it.

-Kywu

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:56 am
by Mannstein
/ignore
This post was deleted since i made some wrong assumptions, and could lead some players into error...

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:06 pm
by Kelaan
Mannstein wrote:Inquisition only bufs holy damage, CS, melle and TV are out of scope, so i confess i fail to see the advantage on keeping it up for 30seconds... unless is:
A) During Avenging Wrath
B) When the boss is <20%
C) With the Guardian


So, Inq helps judgement, exo, HW, and cons only? I dunno, my damage seemed much less lackluster when I'd start fights with a few HP worth of Inquisition, and tried to keep it up. I'll need to do some testing to see if it's all in my mind.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:02 pm
by Scarzi
Has anyone tried fast two handers?

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:23 pm
by Kelaan
Scarzi wrote:Has anyone tried fast two handers?

Most of the raiding STR weapons are 3.6 speed or slower; I don't expect that to change in later tiers. The general consensus seems to be that slower is better, as it has higher per-strike damage. Given haste's relatively low value when we can't get CS at 3 seconds, I doubt the faster white hits would make a big difference.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:04 am
by Scarzi
Well I often duel with TF and a shield against almost every class and spam exo cause it proc's so much as well as heal from hands. That is why I am curious.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:14 pm
by Fearonir
Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.

Unfortunately, every number crunching related data I've seen says that the stat priority (ignoring the possible incoming Mastery change) is Strength > Hit (to 8%) > Expertise (to 16, since you should be glyphed for the other 10) > Crit > Haste > Mastery (Click Here for concrete numerical data).

While Haste is much more appealing than previously, it doesn't trump Crit. However, at 85 they are so close that it becomes nitpicking.

If the current proposed change to our mastery goes live, and is affected by Inquisition, then the stat priority will shift to Strength > Mastery (again, dependent on whether or not the mastery is buffed by Inquisition) > Hit > Expertise > Crit > Haste, with haste and crit still remaining roughly equal.

Rotation priority is interesting, at least currently, since AoW proc'd Exorcisms take the top spot from nearly everything (excluding Inquisition) on all mobs and do take the top spot from HoW on Undead/Demon.

Also, concerning the fast 2H Weapons. Unless I missed it posted somewhere, our seal damage is still not normalized to weapon speed. So a slower weapon is better. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I just don't remember seeing anything saying they normalized seal damage to weapon damage.

Personally, I've found that when I'm lazy and don't use Inquisition a large majority of the time, my dps is lower on average than when I do. As a result of this, I love Inquisition and pray to the gaming gods that they allow it to also buff the new mastery.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:47 am
by Rachmaninoff
Fearonir wrote:Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.

Unfortunately, every number crunching related data I've seen says that the stat priority (ignoring the possible incoming Mastery change) is Strength > Hit (to 8%) > Expertise (to 16, since you should be glyphed for the other 10) > Crit > Haste > Mastery (Click Here for concrete numerical data).

While Haste is much more appealing than previously, it doesn't trump Crit. However, at 85 they are so close that it becomes nitpicking.

If the current proposed change to our mastery goes live, and is affected by Inquisition, then the stat priority will shift to Strength > Mastery (again, dependent on whether or not the mastery is buffed by Inquisition) > Hit > Expertise > Crit > Haste, with haste and crit still remaining roughly equal.

Rotation priority is interesting, at least currently, since AoW proc'd Exorcisms take the top spot from nearly everything (excluding Inquisition) on all mobs and do take the top spot from HoW on Undead/Demon.

Also, concerning the fast 2H Weapons. Unless I missed it posted somewhere, our seal damage is still not normalized to weapon speed. So a slower weapon is better. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I just don't remember seeing anything saying they normalized seal damage to weapon damage.

Personally, I've found that when I'm lazy and don't use Inquisition a large majority of the time, my dps is lower on average than when I do. As a result of this, I love Inquisition and pray to the gaming gods that they allow it to also buff the new mastery.


shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.

I just started working on my ret set and before I only had about 2% hit. I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. Obviously this is taking a toll on my str/crt/haste/mastery. but this has been helpful for me! I'm gonna work on it tonight

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:35 am
by Mannstein
Rachmaninoff wrote:shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.
"..."
I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. ..."


Think this way... 900hit rating gives you aprox. more 8%damage (no misses) 900stg gives you more that 8% damage....
Anyway...
You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way,
Item doesn't have hit, reforge to hit
Item has hit, reforge the other stat to expertise

(If the socket bonus is +20stg, you should gem with a orange or a purple, if it's not +40stg all the way)

Honestly, it's not the Inquisition that hurts me... it's raiding for a tier with a 3sec+lag Crusader Strike, and the beauty that is a (CS+filler)*3 rotation, and passing to a - "CS, no filler available for 4long seconds, CS, oh WTF 3holy power, Art of war and Hand of Light available... must press something... agggghhhhhhhhhhhhh... epileptic stroke due to flashing lights" rotation

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:23 am
by Bashe
Fearonir wrote:Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.


is this pre or post nerf of Inquisition? I apologize having to ask that, but quite frankly it caught me off-guard just a few minutes ago and I haven't a clue how long ago they nixed it. To me personally, it seems like 12s of increase holy dmg isn't worth the Templar's verdict you'd lose for it.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:37 am
by Kelaan
Bashe wrote:To me personally, it seems like 12s of increase holy dmg isn't worth the Templar's verdict you'd lose for it.

The Inquiry of Faith talent gives ret paladins a 150% Inquisition duration. This means that Inquisition lasts 18 seconds.

When we no longer proc free TV's all the time, but rather they seem to act like the Eternal Glory procs (if I understood Planned Changes to Ret Mastery correctly), then it might be less appealing to use Inquisition. I don't know.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:16 pm
by Rachmaninoff
Mannstein wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.
"..."
I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. ..."


Think this way... 900hit rating gives you aprox. more 8%damage (no misses) 900stg gives you more that 8% damage....
Anyway...
You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way,
Item doesn't have hit, reforge to hit
Item has hit, reforge the other stat to expertise

(If the socket bonus is +20stg, you should gem with a orange or a purple, if it's not +40stg all the way)

I completely understand that Str is our most important stat for dmg. however, at this point since most of our gear has low stats (such has hit). reforging only gimps your already low crit, haste, and mastery. and yes mastery isn't that important until the next patch.

and from what your saying, it can be interrupted as if you can in theory do 8% more dmg than the person who is hit capped. however, this means your are missing for at least 8% of the time mean you and the person who is hit capped are doing the same amount of dmg. and you can miss more often the less hit you have. I had 2.8% hit and I was missing 9% of the time when I did a heroic the other night. that could also be from a lack of expertise.

if someone could prove my point that would be awesome, preferably with some numbers.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:51 pm
by Kelaan
Rachmaninoff wrote:
Mannstein wrote:You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way


I completely understand that Str is our most important stat for dmg. however, at this point since most of our gear has low stats (such has hit). reforging only gimps your already low crit, haste, and mastery.


You missed his point entirely. Strength is Ret's primary driver, more valuable than more than two of any other rating. We can gem for it to get more than our gear has, but we cannot reforge into str. Using a non-Str gem in a gem slot (or even a Str/X hybrid often times) is a WORSE trade than using pure Str in sockets, with the exception of Very Good bonuses or meeting the meta gem requirements.

Hit and Expertise can be achieved by reforging all of our other stats (which are worth about half or 2/3 as much as either hit or expertise) into Hit and Expertise. Any time you replace a Str gem with a Hit or Expertise gem, you're losing damage in the long run. Using gems to cap your hit or expertise merely makes your damage more reliable for short term bursts, but it's generally better to reforge crit, haste, and mastery into hit and expertise.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:00 pm
by Njall
I never expect it.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:44 pm
by Dantriges
As the OP is about if we hate Inquisition, yes I do. I hate all this proc management, three cds, the 20% hammer, one buff short running and so on.

Perhaps I am slowly getting old and my mental bandwidth decreases but watching all this stuff and my surroundings, executing the tactics etc. is certainly taxing it.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:20 am
by Leuthas
Kelaan wrote:
Bashe wrote:To me personally, it seems like 12s of increase holy dmg isn't worth the Templar's verdict you'd lose for it.

The Inquiry of Faith talent gives ret paladins a 150% Inquisition duration. This means that Inquisition lasts 18 seconds.

When we no longer proc free TV's all the time, but rather they seem to act like the Eternal Glory procs (if I understood Planned Changes to Ret Mastery correctly), then it might be less appealing to use Inquisition. I don't know.

Inquisition is a 30 second buff with 3/3 Inquiry of Faith. I'm guessing there's a typo or something in your post. :wink:

And this is the latest Mastery setup on the PTR as I can see:
"•Hand of Light (Mastery): A percentage of the damage done by Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm is done as additional Holy damage. This Mastery now grants a 2.1% increase to Holy damage per mastery, down from 2.5%."

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:15 pm
by rodos
Leuthas wrote:And this is the latest Mastery setup on the PTR as I can see:
"•Hand of Light (Mastery): A percentage of the damage done by Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm is done as additional Holy damage. This Mastery now grants a 2.1% increase to Holy damage per mastery, down from 2.5%."

This was somewhat expected. Theorycrafting on the original PTR value (2.5%) put the new mastery way ahead of crit and haste. Mastery is supposed to be a good stat, but not to the point of making the others junk.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:13 am
by Mannstein
rodos wrote:
Leuthas wrote:And this is the latest Mastery setup on the PTR as I can see:
"•Hand of Light (Mastery): A percentage of the damage done by Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm is done as additional Holy damage. This Mastery now grants a 2.1% increase to Holy damage per mastery, down from 2.5%."

This was somewhat expected. Theorycrafting on the original PTR value (2.5%) put the new mastery way ahead of crit and haste. Mastery is supposed to be a good stat, but not to the point of making the others junk.


The issue (that i fail to grasp) is that if this stats (crit/hast/mastery) are all iqual, what is the need for reforging?
I mean, i understod and liked aiming to a stat till you get aprox. "X" value, then reforge for the others...
Currently the only need i have for reforging, if for dropping expertise, hast/crit is "almost" irrelevant...

This is absolutly QQ, but from T10 to T11, retri lost half the fun for me... (And i liked after the patch)

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:28 pm
by rodos
Mannstein wrote:
rodos wrote:This was somewhat expected. Theorycrafting on the original PTR value (2.5%) put the new mastery way ahead of crit and haste. Mastery is supposed to be a good stat, but not to the point of making the others junk.


The issue (that i fail to grasp) is that if this stats (crit/hast/mastery) are all iqual, what is the need for reforging?
I mean, i understod and liked aiming to a stat till you get aprox. "X" value, then reforge for the others...
Currently the only need i have for reforging, if for dropping expertise, hast/crit is "almost" irrelevant...

Given that ret can't soft-cap their haste any more, and since Conviction went to Holy, you're probably right that haste and crit are more or less equivalent for that spec and there's no reforging required. However, for a lot of specs that's not really the case. There are sweet-spots in haste that make rotations better, and having a certain amount of crit to keep a crit-based buff or debuff rolling.

Tanks also have the option to reforge between parry and dodge to make the best of diminishing returns, even though these stats are similarly effective at first glance.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:28 pm
by Fearonir
Sorry I missed the replies and questions of me.

Regarding the mastery > hit question someone asked. Hit is very important, let's face it, but since you get an automatic 8% spell hit as soon as you choose Ret as your focus tree, hit isn't too horrible of a concern for spells. And since Exorcism is amazingly OP with Inquisition up (read that as up to 45-50k Crits with AW and items procs), mastery would pull ahead.

With the recent change to the mastery (2.5 down to 2.1) mastery moves much closer to being on par with crit and haste, but still slightly ahead. The value of mastery at that point will only go up higher, and I believe that the value of haste will also increase as Mastery does, since HP generation (or a large portion--more reliable portion?--of it at least) is tied to Crusader Strike, you'll want as much haste as possible for more CS hits which translate to more HP and TV hits which further translates to more Hand of Light hits.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:47 am
by econ21
What dps are people averaging in heroics with around 346 gear? I have a ret offspec that I very rarely use (i.e. about 4 times since Cata), but have been disappointed with my dps - it averaged 7k on heroic Halls of Origination. The main spec dps in my guild can now get around 10k in their heroics, which I understand is a decent benchmark to aim for prior to raiding (we have not started yet). My trinkets are poor, and I use 4 pc PVP gear for the strength bonuses, but generally I think my gear is pretty good (all available rep gear; well gemmed & enchanted). I have no doubt some of my poor performance is due lack of familiarity and skill, but would like to know what retadins in comparable gear are capable of.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:37 am
by majiben
All my items are enchanted, reforged, and gemmed. I'm in full 346 gear or higher PvE gear excepting one 333 str trinket. I pull 12-14k on a favorable boss fight. My baby destro lock at 329 ilvl average, half enchanted, one quarter pvp, one quarter spirit gear puts 11-12k on a heroic boss fight. Needless to say I was quite disgusted with ret after that discovery and have trouble playing it as a result.

Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:41 am
by econ21
majiben wrote:I pull 12-14k on a favorable boss fight.


I wonder, do you know what do you average over the course of the entire heroic?

BTW: how do you find out your dps on a specific fight? I use recount but haven't figured out how to do that out yet.