[Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Gavinas » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:01 am

Mannstein wrote:
rodos wrote:I read that and was a bit confused. Surely TV is my biggest source of damage, and thus the Ret mastery is awesome?! Then, reading EJ's Retribution Concordance, the light came on. Exorcism is the ability that hits like a train at 85, and Inquisition buffs it directly.


The issue is that the proc of Ret Mastery (Free TV) will use a GCD that would be used for something else. So your dps gain is not +TV damage, is in fact TV damage less the ability you would use in it's space and is delayed.
IF the ret mastery was a free instant cast off the GCD TV the story would be something else :D.


In my limited experience messing around with ret in prot gear with a 2her hitting the training dummies I seem to have a decent amount of dead time waiting for things to come off cd or Art of War to proc, is that not the case with actual dps gear and raid buffs?
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:22 am

Speaking of dead time, something I didn't notice in the EJ thread:

What do I do with dead time? Maximize GCD use (delaying CSes), or go CS,X,wait,CS ... ?
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Cronus » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:35 am

I think blizzards main focus was on prot pallys and making them on par with the other tanking classes. Ret was a bi-product and really wasn’t focused on. I hope that blizz is working to tweak ret some and give us a less clucky rotation with no dead time AND an increase to our DPS.

I see a change for ret next patch. Exorcism should not be our nuke spell. Its procs are not reliable and w/o proc it’s an uncomfortable wait for it to cast. TV should be our main nuke. Inquisition? Either fix it so it’s a standard part of our rotation w/o sacrificing TV/ WoG or get rid of it.

I have faith ret will be fixed but until then, Prot is so much dam fun!
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby d503 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:47 am

Kelaan wrote:Speaking of dead time, something I didn't notice in the EJ thread:

What do I do with dead time? Maximize GCD use (delaying CSes), or go CS,X,wait,CS ... ?


It is a massive DPS loss to delay CS at all. Your goal for gearing should be to get CS as close to 3 seconds as possible (mine's at 3.68 with JotP buff up). I'm only in 346 blues (mostly crap JP gear) and I've reforged mostly haste and hit where I needed it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Cronus » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:49 am

d503 wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Your goal for gearing should be to get CS as close to 3 seconds as possible (mine's at 3.68 with JotP buff up). I'm only in 346 blues (mostly crap JP gear) and I've reforged mostly haste and hit where I needed it.


Is haste the smoking gun I am missing for low dps? Should I focus on Hit cap then HASTE HASTE HASTE?
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby d503 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:41 pm

Cronus wrote:
d503 wrote:
Kelaan wrote:Your goal for gearing should be to get CS as close to 3 seconds as possible (mine's at 3.68 with JotP buff up). I'm only in 346 blues (mostly crap JP gear) and I've reforged mostly haste and hit where I needed it.


Is haste the smoking gun I am missing for low dps? Should I focus on Hit cap then HASTE HASTE HASTE?


That's what me and my rets are doing. YMMV, but haste will not only decrease CS cooldown, but also reduce the GCD and increase rate of Censure ticks...pretty powerful stuff.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:10 pm

Since I'm primarily gearing as a tank, I'm in the "beggars can't be choosers" camp for what type of Ret gear I get. I don't see a lot of haste rating on my gear yet. :-( Once I'm in 333+ gear, I'll do the reforging thing, but until then ... meh. I'll languish. (Actually, I'll tank, and have a frickin' blast.)
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby rodos » Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:25 pm

Gavinas wrote:In my limited experience messing around with ret in prot gear with a 2her hitting the training dummies I seem to have a decent amount of dead time waiting for things to come off cd or Art of War to proc, is that not the case with actual dps gear and raid buffs?

The problem comes when you get a HoL proc at full HoPo and CS is off cooldown. You have to delay CS and thus lose some potential HoPo generation.

Kelaan wrote:What do I do with dead time? Maximize GCD use (delaying CSes), or go CS,X,wait,CS ... ?

From what I've seen, you wait, unless your haste is really low. On trash and world mobs I'll tend to hit Exo as soon as AoW procs, unless I also have HoL up, because if you're lucky you can just Exo, TV, HoW, dead. For sustained dps you need to be getting in every CS you can.

d503 wrote:That's what me and my rets are doing. YMMV, but haste will not only decrease CS cooldown, but also reduce the GCD and increase rate of Censure ticks...pretty powerful stuff.

Haste won't lower your GCD after CS, DS, TV, or Judgement. Exo, HW, and Cons are spells, and thus trigger a hasted GCD. However, since you're pretty much locked to the CS cooldown it doesn't make a lot of difference.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:40 am

Cronus wrote: Is haste the smoking gun I am missing for low dps? Should I focus on Hit cap then HASTE HASTE HASTE?


Calm down :D
Haste is your friend but Strenght is still you best friend...
Gem for Strenght.. Reforge for Hit>exp>haste.

The issue is:
With a 3seconds CS, you have CS,filler,CS,filler...
It's nice, easy and smooth, any proc is a "nice to have".
With a 4seconds CS, you have CS,filler,wait,CS,Filler,wait...
It's boring, and the procs are "Must have".
After 3years raiding with a GCD capped class, gooing into a "nothing to do every 3seconds" class is very... :(
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:00 am

Mannstein wrote:Gem for Strenght.. Reforge for Hit>exp>haste.

Thanks for saying it so succinctly. Should I be prioritizing hit/exp more than haste? The rotational difference seems large.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby rodos » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:21 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Mannstein wrote:Gem for Strenght.. Reforge for Hit>exp>haste.

Thanks for saying it so succinctly. Should I be prioritizing hit/exp more than haste? The rotational difference seems large.

I'm pretty sure hit/exp are much better to cap.

The rotation shouldn't really change on "long" (i.e. non-trivial) fights, it just gets slower if you have less haste. You really never want to CS-filler-filler-CS because you're always delaying the CS and hence HoPo generation.

Cronus wrote:I see a change for ret next patch. Exorcism should not be our nuke spell. Its procs are not reliable and w/o proc it’s an uncomfortable wait for it to cast.

You should never ever be long-casting Exorcism unless you're forced to be out of melee range. It only hits half as hard and will stop your auto-attack. Even accidentally hitting your Exo button without AoW proc and immediately canceling it by Esc or moving will be a dps loss due to reset swing timer.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby d503 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:55 pm

Mannstein wrote:Haste is your friend but Strenght is still you best friend...
Gem for Strenght.. Reforge for Hit>exp>haste.


Good point - I should've clarified what I do in practice. Haste is my go to reforge stat if Hit and Expertise are already capped. Gemming is Strength, pretty much all the way, unless you have a decent socket bonus you can match.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby kennywu » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:51 am

After playing Ret for a week (I switch dps/tank roles in heroics for breaks) I've come to this:

Haste is key to getting CS to 3 sec CD, but that number is hard to reach atm. Until I get better gear with more haste, I keep my haste low so that I am able to do 2 abilities between CS. Yes, there are some moments when I have every ability on CD and I'm waiting for CS or something else to come off CD, but with procs and secret sauce we have plenty to do.

Let me elaborate more on my playing style and rotation (which I hit 12K+ dps on 10 man Tol Borad boss these past 2 weeks). Lead in with Judgement. It not only gives a niffty speed boost, but is buffs us with haste. Always keep Inquisition up. My first 3 Holy Power charges are spent on Inquistion. It's a pain to spend 3 HP on it, but the boost it gives to our dps is worth it. I use Power Aura to show me when it's up and a timer so that I can refresh it before the buff falls off. When I have initially get the Inquisition buff, I pop wings and use Hammer of Wrath as one of my fillers. I then go thru my CS -> filler -> filler rotation where priority on fillers is HoW > Exo > HW > Judgement. When wings expire, I then use Zealotry. Right before Zealotry buff expires, use the last CS3HPgenerator to refresh Inquisition. While dpsing, if a free Exo procs and I have 3 Holy Power, I always cast TV first because the Exo may proc a charge of Holy Power.

There are going to be times when all of our ablilities are on CD and we have no procs, but we're Paladins! We have the seceret sauce. When times like the above happen, I use Divine Plea, FoL self heal, FoL heal party/raid members, or use any of my Hands when the situtation calls for it.

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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:56 am

/ignore
This post was deleted since i made some wrong assumptions, and could lead some players into error...
Last edited by Mannstein on Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:06 pm

Mannstein wrote:Inquisition only bufs holy damage, CS, melle and TV are out of scope, so i confess i fail to see the advantage on keeping it up for 30seconds... unless is:
A) During Avenging Wrath
B) When the boss is <20%
C) With the Guardian


So, Inq helps judgement, exo, HW, and cons only? I dunno, my damage seemed much less lackluster when I'd start fights with a few HP worth of Inquisition, and tried to keep it up. I'll need to do some testing to see if it's all in my mind.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Scarzi » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:02 pm

Has anyone tried fast two handers?
Last time I checked, 38% dodge is better then stacking stamina.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:23 pm

Scarzi wrote:Has anyone tried fast two handers?

Most of the raiding STR weapons are 3.6 speed or slower; I don't expect that to change in later tiers. The general consensus seems to be that slower is better, as it has higher per-strike damage. Given haste's relatively low value when we can't get CS at 3 seconds, I doubt the faster white hits would make a big difference.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Scarzi » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:04 am

Well I often duel with TF and a shield against almost every class and spam exo cause it proc's so much as well as heal from hands. That is why I am curious.
Last time I checked, 38% dodge is better then stacking stamina.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Fearonir » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:14 pm

Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.

Unfortunately, every number crunching related data I've seen says that the stat priority (ignoring the possible incoming Mastery change) is Strength > Hit (to 8%) > Expertise (to 16, since you should be glyphed for the other 10) > Crit > Haste > Mastery (Click Here for concrete numerical data).

While Haste is much more appealing than previously, it doesn't trump Crit. However, at 85 they are so close that it becomes nitpicking.

If the current proposed change to our mastery goes live, and is affected by Inquisition, then the stat priority will shift to Strength > Mastery (again, dependent on whether or not the mastery is buffed by Inquisition) > Hit > Expertise > Crit > Haste, with haste and crit still remaining roughly equal.

Rotation priority is interesting, at least currently, since AoW proc'd Exorcisms take the top spot from nearly everything (excluding Inquisition) on all mobs and do take the top spot from HoW on Undead/Demon.

Also, concerning the fast 2H Weapons. Unless I missed it posted somewhere, our seal damage is still not normalized to weapon speed. So a slower weapon is better. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I just don't remember seeing anything saying they normalized seal damage to weapon damage.

Personally, I've found that when I'm lazy and don't use Inquisition a large majority of the time, my dps is lower on average than when I do. As a result of this, I love Inquisition and pray to the gaming gods that they allow it to also buff the new mastery.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Rachmaninoff » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:47 am

Fearonir wrote:Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.

Unfortunately, every number crunching related data I've seen says that the stat priority (ignoring the possible incoming Mastery change) is Strength > Hit (to 8%) > Expertise (to 16, since you should be glyphed for the other 10) > Crit > Haste > Mastery (Click Here for concrete numerical data).

While Haste is much more appealing than previously, it doesn't trump Crit. However, at 85 they are so close that it becomes nitpicking.

If the current proposed change to our mastery goes live, and is affected by Inquisition, then the stat priority will shift to Strength > Mastery (again, dependent on whether or not the mastery is buffed by Inquisition) > Hit > Expertise > Crit > Haste, with haste and crit still remaining roughly equal.

Rotation priority is interesting, at least currently, since AoW proc'd Exorcisms take the top spot from nearly everything (excluding Inquisition) on all mobs and do take the top spot from HoW on Undead/Demon.

Also, concerning the fast 2H Weapons. Unless I missed it posted somewhere, our seal damage is still not normalized to weapon speed. So a slower weapon is better. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I just don't remember seeing anything saying they normalized seal damage to weapon damage.

Personally, I've found that when I'm lazy and don't use Inquisition a large majority of the time, my dps is lower on average than when I do. As a result of this, I love Inquisition and pray to the gaming gods that they allow it to also buff the new mastery.


shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.

I just started working on my ret set and before I only had about 2% hit. I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. Obviously this is taking a toll on my str/crt/haste/mastery. but this has been helpful for me! I'm gonna work on it tonight
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Mannstein » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:35 am

Rachmaninoff wrote:shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.
"..."
I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. ..."


Think this way... 900hit rating gives you aprox. more 8%damage (no misses) 900stg gives you more that 8% damage....
Anyway...
You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way,
Item doesn't have hit, reforge to hit
Item has hit, reforge the other stat to expertise

(If the socket bonus is +20stg, you should gem with a orange or a purple, if it's not +40stg all the way)

Honestly, it's not the Inquisition that hurts me... it's raiding for a tier with a 3sec+lag Crusader Strike, and the beauty that is a (CS+filler)*3 rotation, and passing to a - "CS, no filler available for 4long seconds, CS, oh WTF 3holy power, Art of war and Hand of Light available... must press something... agggghhhhhhhhhhhhh... epileptic stroke due to flashing lights" rotation
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Bashe » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:23 am

Fearonir wrote:Thought I'd jump in as a full time Ret Paladin pulling between 10 and 13k in dungeons in a mix of iLevel 346 gear and a iLevel 359 piece or two.

I keep Inquisition up nearly all the time, simply because of AoW proc'd Exorcism.


is this pre or post nerf of Inquisition? I apologize having to ask that, but quite frankly it caught me off-guard just a few minutes ago and I haven't a clue how long ago they nixed it. To me personally, it seems like 12s of increase holy dmg isn't worth the Templar's verdict you'd lose for it.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:37 am

Bashe wrote:To me personally, it seems like 12s of increase holy dmg isn't worth the Templar's verdict you'd lose for it.

The Inquiry of Faith talent gives ret paladins a 150% Inquisition duration. This means that Inquisition lasts 18 seconds.

When we no longer proc free TV's all the time, but rather they seem to act like the Eternal Glory procs (if I understood Planned Changes to Ret Mastery correctly), then it might be less appealing to use Inquisition. I don't know.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Rachmaninoff » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:16 pm

Mannstein wrote:
Rachmaninoff wrote:shouldn't hit take top priority? its not gonna mean shit if you cant hit your target.
"..."
I started working on hit and now I have 8.02%. I've had to gem primarily to hit. ..."


Think this way... 900hit rating gives you aprox. more 8%damage (no misses) 900stg gives you more that 8% damage....
Anyway...
You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way,
Item doesn't have hit, reforge to hit
Item has hit, reforge the other stat to expertise

(If the socket bonus is +20stg, you should gem with a orange or a purple, if it's not +40stg all the way)

I completely understand that Str is our most important stat for dmg. however, at this point since most of our gear has low stats (such has hit). reforging only gimps your already low crit, haste, and mastery. and yes mastery isn't that important until the next patch.

and from what your saying, it can be interrupted as if you can in theory do 8% more dmg than the person who is hit capped. however, this means your are missing for at least 8% of the time mean you and the person who is hit capped are doing the same amount of dmg. and you can miss more often the less hit you have. I had 2.8% hit and I was missing 9% of the time when I did a heroic the other night. that could also be from a lack of expertise.

if someone could prove my point that would be awesome, preferably with some numbers.
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Re: [Ret] Anyone else REALLY hate Inquisition?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:51 pm

Rachmaninoff wrote:
Mannstein wrote:You almost never should gemm to hit...
Reforge is the way


I completely understand that Str is our most important stat for dmg. however, at this point since most of our gear has low stats (such has hit). reforging only gimps your already low crit, haste, and mastery.


You missed his point entirely. Strength is Ret's primary driver, more valuable than more than two of any other rating. We can gem for it to get more than our gear has, but we cannot reforge into str. Using a non-Str gem in a gem slot (or even a Str/X hybrid often times) is a WORSE trade than using pure Str in sockets, with the exception of Very Good bonuses or meeting the meta gem requirements.

Hit and Expertise can be achieved by reforging all of our other stats (which are worth about half or 2/3 as much as either hit or expertise) into Hit and Expertise. Any time you replace a Str gem with a Hit or Expertise gem, you're losing damage in the long run. Using gems to cap your hit or expertise merely makes your damage more reliable for short term bursts, but it's generally better to reforge crit, haste, and mastery into hit and expertise.
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