Prot Warriors

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:24 pm

I only mentioned it because it's roughly the difference between having the tank be able to interrupt his raid-wide damage+knockback (Shadow burst?), and having to have a DPS player on the boss full-time to babysit interrupts. (For those that don't have an ele shaman, etc.) In 25-man, that's not so bad, but in 10-man it means having only 4 DPS on the kill target instead of 5. (It's also not as bad when you can have one tank on the boss the whole time.)
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby fafhrd » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:16 pm

thatguy wrote:
bldavis wrote:
Mmo-Champ wrote: Warrior (Forums / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Skills/Talents)
Colossus Smash now ignores 50% of a hostile player's armor (PvP), but continues to ignore 100% of a non-player character's armor (PvE).

now lets see if this makes it live


It's this kind of stuff that drives me bat shit crazy. After all of the "balancing" that they've tried to do, they finally realize that "Gee, maybe we could just flip this switch to differentiate between PvP and PvE". Why they can't do more of this just baffles me.


ESPECIALLY when they've said time and time again that they think having abilities behave differently between PvP and PvE is "too complicated for new players to have to pick up". They've previously rubberstamped it for CC by saying CC durations are covered by a single broad rule instead of per ability differences, but now they go ahead and do it for a DPS ability.

All that ranting being said, I'm glad they did it, since trying to balance warrior PvE sustained DPS against warrior PvP burst dps without something like this was just getting annoying. Hopefully they still go ahead with some of the other changes like increased white damage though, since otherwise we're stuck not really giving a damn about stats that only help white dps (hit past yellow cap, haste).
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:36 am

bldavis wrote:
Kelaan wrote:How would you have handled interrupts SOLO while tanking Halfus? I'm curious what the rotation is, especially given that you might be tank swapping.

I think it's also possible that they didn't want you to have an interupt more than every 10 seconds.

dang
you found the flaw in my logic

i dont know any of the raid fights cept the BH boss....if you call that a raid


Shield Bash and Pummel would be the only Warrior interrupts effective against Halfus, to my knowledge. Concussion Blow, Shockwave, Charge, and Intercept are stuns, so unless I'm off my mark, they do nothing to stop Halfus from casting, although they work great on caster trash.

There's also Spell Reflect, but it does nothing against AoE spells, and only certain single target spells from bosses can be reflected.

So, no, a Warrior is not an all-in-one interrupt machine on Halfus.

Frankly, the effect of losing Shield Bash will be minimal for PvE, in my opinion.

On the note of Halfus, last time I was in there with my guild, my Feral Druid friend said he had no problem using Bash to interrupt every single Shadow Nova by himself after the first, so I believe the cooldown is up to 10 seconds now, though I could be mistaken.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby bldavis » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:18 am

skull bash has a 10 sec cd, idr what bash's is
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:31 am

bldavis wrote:skull bash has a 10 sec cd, idr what bash's is


Yes, thank you. Please excuse my typo.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:53 am

bldavis wrote:
Flex wrote:
bldavis wrote:another case of pvp fucking up our pve


Or a PvE request, 10 second cooldown interrupt like every other tanking class, being filled in the most logical way.

if this is the case, then i want to kick the ass of who ever asked for it, we have 3 cooldowns we can use for interupts, why the hell would you ask for one to be taken away?

that is what i love about being a warrior, if i cant put my foot down or bash my shield in your face to get you to stfu, ill just throw my weapon at you.

im sure it is just more homogenization between the tanking classes but i think its screwed up

/rant


Silence and Stuns aren't Interrupts. Nothing is being taken away since Pummel and Shield Bash shared a cooldown anyway. To normalize the cooldowns in tanking classes they removed Shield Bash and allowed Pummel in any stance. PvE prot warriors are more or less buffed except in fringe trash positioning cases and PvP prot warriors were nerfed due to the Gag Order change.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby semp » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:01 am

I have been really enjoying my prot warrior. I started leveling him in WotLK and from level 15-42 completely through instances. Now in Cata I started leveling him again through instances only and up to level 54. Only a few more levels for BC dungeons! The ability to change anytime is awesome. What I do miss is being able to chain cleave =/. Rend spreading to secondary targets with TC is great to.

As far as how I handle AOE, I charge -> rend -> TC to start the fight. Then keep cleave on CD and revenge whenever its up. This is like AOE god mode at least at these levels. I use glyph of cleave and revenge for more AOE.

On a side note, druid healers seem to be much weaker than paladins and priests at this level range (50s). Maybe I just have had all noob druids.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby thatguy » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:30 am

I've been tootling around in random bgs on my prot warrior and I've been loving it. I will surely miss Shield Bash if that change goes through. I giggle when a healer started casting a heal and I could lock them out for a couple of seconds. It's not as if there are a crap ton of prot warriors anyways and on top of that we aren't incredibly Arena viable so I'm left scratching my head as to why they're doing it.

The best I can do is defend a node until backup arrives, annoy the bejeesus out of casters/hunters/healers, and be a meat bag with some stuns. Flag running is better served by paladins and blood dks as well. I still like the mobility of the warrior but Shield Bash was a niche that prot warriors had.

Don't even get me started on the Shield Reflect thing either. Frost mages most likely whined loud enough that they couldn't kill every class without thinking. Big whoop, I reflect your 8k ice lance but I close in on you and then get nova'ed/Cone of Cold/Frozen/Frost Barrier and then blink away. I can only trinket once/Berserker rage once every 2 minutes.

All the while your stupid frost bolts are slowing me. Maybe I'm doing it completely wrong but frost mages frustrate me to no end. I'd rather fight two holy pallies than a single frost mage. I might never win against holy pallies but at least I can get into melee range and try to do something without being perma-kited.

If anyone has tips on how to deal with these wretches, please let me know.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Dane » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:57 am

Here's a Cat raiding-level prot warrior question, or series, rather...

1) Hit cap...more important than it is for us? Should warrior tanks be reforging for hit?
2) Kind of a catch-all...as the "other" shield tank, is their gearing fairly similar to ours? My co-tank is 5 or so ilevels ahead of me...but healers say I'm easier to keep up. I checked our respective armories, and while he's sitting at about 160k unbuffed to my either 147 or 143...(sorry, stam isn't my gearing priority, so I know I'm lose to the 150k I want, but not QUITE there...I also don't know my exact number. I have enough to survive...I know that much.) but I've got about 7% more block than him. Dodge and parry are the same until you get to the hundreths column...
3) Threat...does he really need a shield spike...or would a defensive enchant serve him better?

I have a feeling I should have a talk with him, but I'd like to be sure I'm not making a fool of myself first. He's rocking dual-stam trinkets...which I told him was silliness at our gear/content level, but then I realized...maybe it isn't for a warrior, maybe it is.

Any insight is appreciated.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:14 am

I would argue your warrior friend is doing it wrong. Mastery is amazing for both shield tanks; I follow the same gear guidelines with my warrior as with my paladin.

1. No, no.
2. Yes.
3. No, yes.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:03 am

Block % and critical block both scale with their mastery, right? So that means that he's missing out on a bunch if he's not doing that. I'd wager that double-stam trinkets are bag-o-meat-useless compared to mitigation ones, in most situations, (with the perpetual caveat, "unless you're doing hard modes I guess"). :)
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Dane » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:40 am

Thanks for the help...I'm going to have to have a talk with my co-tank. He's a bit of a handful, because he "played professionally during part of Wrath" and they "one-shotted Yogg the first time they saw him," but I've also heard from the healers and dps that he's been merely 'ok' in heroics.

I guess I already knew this was coming, due to his insistence that he's chasing the trinkets from Magmaw AND Val/There...even though I'd had the "two stam trinkets bad atm" talk...
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:55 am

Make sure you can back it up with numbers. :)
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Dane » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:48 am

Kelaan wrote:Make sure you can back it up with numbers. :)


Well...here's what I've got so far. Don't know if this is what you mean.

Him:

Health: 160,753
Dodge: 11.85%
Parry: 12.37%
Block: 43.98%

Me:

Health: Still not sure...we'll go with the lower number 143k and change
Dodge: 11.78%
Parry: 12.97%
Block: 51.50%

Looks pretty cut and dried to me. We're fairly similarly geared, levelwise...he's a little up on me.

RL has also been putting me in the main spots, but I've asked him to make sure things are fair...I may make sure roles ar switched tonight so we can do a parse by parse comparison on damage taken.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby bldavis » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:18 pm

the main difference between the shield tank classes is block

pallies will block more often and for a set amount
warriors will block less but have a chance to block more damage

as far as gearing i am using a mostly pally thinking (mastery>stam stacking) and havent had a problem
ive even had some healers tell me im easier to keep up then some pallies
(prob just noob pallies)

asfar as teh shield spike.....if anything a pally would get more use due to blocking more
shield spike doesnt boost shield slam

however if you are specced into Heavy Repercussions keeping shield block up will

my pulls go shout, shield block, heroic throw, charge, shield slam ......into my priority list
ss>revenge>rend>devestate
keeping TC, and demo shout up
(if specced into Blood and Thunder, you can keep rend up by hitting TC)
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:40 pm

Dane wrote:Him:
Block: 43.98%

Me:
Block: 51.50%

Looks pretty cut and dried to me. We're fairly similarly geared, levelwise...he's a little up on me.


That's mostly what I meant. I think that comparing direct stats is less fruitful than throwing his character into a reforging calculator and saying "{stats} is where you'd be if you gemmed for mastery, and used mitigation/avoidance trinkets rather than stamina". You can trade X% health for Y% damage reduction, etc. Combat table coverage (as we know) tends to make you appear easier to heal (in most cases), and you can show the difference in having 66% versus 76% combat table coverage. For example, I found I could get ~5% combat table coverage by trading away less than 5% of my health (or something similar), and decided I'd try it.

Then, try to show parses where you both tank similar fights (Omnotron, Halfus, Valiona, etc) and see if there's significant differences in the damage you're taking. Overall damage and dps-taken for fights will help illustrate the validity of your above point better, in general. The fact that you, with non-stam trinkets and not purely stam gemming, have survived tanking the same fights might convince him that he doesn't need as much.

Conversely, maybe he's geared fine (aside from trinkets) and just isn't very good at smart cooldown use? (I know on my DK I'm pretty bad at that.)
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:05 am

Dane wrote:Here's a Cat raiding-level prot warrior question, or series, rather...

1) Hit cap...more important than it is for us? Should warrior tanks be reforging for hit?
2) Kind of a catch-all...as the "other" shield tank, is their gearing fairly similar to ours? My co-tank is 5 or so ilevels ahead of me...but healers say I'm easier to keep up. I checked our respective armories, and while he's sitting at about 160k unbuffed to my either 147 or 143...(sorry, stam isn't my gearing priority, so I know I'm lose to the 150k I want, but not QUITE there...I also don't know my exact number. I have enough to survive...I know that much.) but I've got about 7% more block than him. Dodge and parry are the same until you get to the hundreths column...
3) Threat...does he really need a shield spike...or would a defensive enchant serve him better?

I have a feeling I should have a talk with him, but I'd like to be sure I'm not making a fool of myself first. He's rocking dual-stam trinkets...which I told him was silliness at our gear/content level, but then I realized...maybe it isn't for a warrior, maybe it is.

Any insight is appreciated.


1) Absolutely not. This is about as wrong as a person could reasonably get. Keep in mind that he makes up for a threat loss in raids (since he has no "free Expertise" glyph) by being able to put Vigilance on a co-tank (if it is a 2 or more tank encounter), which gives him Vengeance every time the target takes damage. This is a *huge* threat boost if you are both tanking stuff at the same time. If its a fight involving swaps, he doesn't lose Vengeance while your tanking, provided he's put Vigilance on you. HUGE.

2) Warrior gearing is pretty much identical to Paladins. Mastery is the bomb. Stam stacking is soooo last 2 expansions.

3) While the shield enchant options are underwhelming, Shield Spikes are purely for the lazy, and even then only worthwhile on trash. If he is struggling for AoE threat more than you or other tanks, then he is probably doing something wrong. Between Thunderclap, Blood and Thunder, Cleave, and Shockwave he should have all the sustained and snap AoE threat that he needs to keep AoE aggro under reasonable circumstances.

Of course, under circumstances where a group's DPS is being uncoordinated and/or overzealous (focusing down mobs he isn't primarily focused on, or launching into AoE before he even pops Thunderclap), and he has mobs running everywhere with little or no rage to use, he may have more trouble getting them back, due to needing to target each mob for Taunt, and making sure to apply some threat to each of those mobs after he does. If Vigilance isn't on anyone (Warriors often forget to use it), or if its on someone who isn't getting hit, he has no choice but to wait out the cooldown on Taunt after each use. Mind you, Vigilance has no cooldown, and costs no rage to put on someone, so a savvy player *could* swap it around between players mid-fight, but every time you do its a lost GCD, and more time spent generating little/no threat.

The only other option is Challenging Shout, which isn't an actual taunt, it just forces everything in range to focus on him until it wears off, and the cooldown is long enough that it rarely gets used, so many people forget they have it, particularly when shit hits the fan.

Some long standing Warrior players (or people who listen to the bullshit on the forums/or in trade chat) still operate under the assumption that they are the absolute worst tank for AoE threat, and require special considerations/gearing to tank trash/groups of adds. This isn't true, and really hasn't been since prior to 3.0.

Pending how long he's been playing a Warrior, he just may not be "up" on current theorycraft, and may view any discussion about Stam stacking as yet another clueless "avoidance noob" telling him to stop stacking Stam. Unlike Paladins, Warriors have never really had a specific Avoidance threshold to gear towards ("Avoidance is just more overheal" was a commonly heard phrase for a *long* time).

They've only rarely actively sought out being "unhittable" or "uncrushable" through gear, and never as a general approach to gearing. In the past, it has been only getting to a minimum Defense threshold for being uncrittable, then stack Stamina and/or possibly threat to the exclusion of all else. So the Cataclysm model where Blocking attacks/Avoidance actually matters is somewhat new to Warriors.

Perhaps all that may lend some insight to your co-tank's perspective.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby bldavis » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:55 am

maybe that is why ppl like my warrior
i played a class that avoidence mattered, so i am gemming,gearing, enchanting, reforging for more block and avoidance.....


granted i started my pally in the hey day of stam stacking, and have never been bleeding edge raiding with him, but still
im used to that style of thinking, thus it is natural to me, and not as foreign
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:53 am

bldavis wrote:maybe that is why ppl like my warrior
i played a class that avoidence mattered, so i am gemming,gearing, enchanting, reforging for more block and avoidance.....


granted i started my pally in the hey day of stam stacking, and have never been bleeding edge raiding with him, but still
im used to that style of thinking, thus it is natural to me, and not as foreign


Its certainly possible. Also, people adapt to change at differing rates. Many players don't seek out new information on their class unless they can clearly identify a serious problem. Without running over parses and comparing damage taken with other tanks, stacking Stamina preferentially to mitigation/avoidance isn't clearly inferior (and it may *still* be unclear which is better, for some players). With the heavy reinforcement for at least the last 4 years that stacking avoidance/mitigation at all is clearly for morons, its difficult to convince some players to change.

The problem is that mitigation/avoidance is mostly about reducing the mana cost to keep you alive. There are multiple variables that can account for healers going oom, only one of which is the tank's gear. Unskilled healer(s), undergeared healer(s), DPS taking too much damage, DPS too low, bad RNG, etc. are all variables that someone in doubt of the new paradigm can hide behind when they *do* experience problems (i.e. "it would have been fine if Bob the Priest would l2heal").

There's a second issue. HP is the most visible statistic of any importance to a tank other players can see. They don't need to look at armory, or even inspect. They don't need to wait for the tank to pull something, unlike threat. Its literally right there, all the time. Its pretty much the first thing everyone sees when you join a group as the tank. This compounds the real value with a special social value, making it seem even more important to have a large healthpool.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby thatguy » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:06 am

I'm not playing devil's advocate but hit cap is mildly important (especially on 10s) on interrupt fights like Maloriak/Tron Council. However, every good tank has different sets that they swap out to fix this issue. If he's worried about threat, expertise is still the best stat for that.

I agree though, gearing for hit/expertise is silly verging on stupid when fights don't call for it. I have two tanks in our guild that ALWAYS want to be hit capped regardless of the fight. I argue with them weekly about gearing for hit. I'm just going to have to chalk it up to them being stubborn and not doing their research. It drivess me bonkers though. I notice a huge difference in healing one of our tanks who is more CTC focused (mastery/parry/dodge/etc) versus those that stack their hit.

If any tank is mildly geared and is having threat issues after the first 4 GCDs, then they're just plain doing it wrong.

On a completely unrelated note, I also get blamed when my Wind Shear misses while I'm healing. (Riggghhhtttt, cause healers should stack hit.)
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:54 am

On the plus side, interrupts won't miss in 4.1.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Chicken » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:16 am

thatguy wrote:On a completely unrelated note, I also get blamed when my Wind Shear misses while I'm healing. (Riggghhhtttt, cause healers should stack hit.)
Well, technically you could pick up Elemental Precision. It'll bring you to the hit cap so as long as you have 1742 spirit on your gear! Of course it also causes you to lose out on some other valuable talents, but that's just details!
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Dane » Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:56 pm

Thanks for all the guidance, guys. Good info. I was tempted to post his armory as well as mine (I know I have a few warts myself, btw...but I like to think I have MOST of the theory right), but it just didn't seem thread/forum appropriate.

Even without that, you all rose to the challenge. THIS is why I visit MTadin...
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:35 pm

thatguy wrote:I'm not playing devil's advocate but hit cap is mildly important (especially on 10s) on interrupt fights like Maloriak/Tron Council. However, every good tank has different sets that they swap out to fix this issue. If he's worried about threat, expertise is still the best stat for that.

I agree though, gearing for hit/expertise is silly verging on stupid when fights don't call for it. I have two tanks in our guild that ALWAYS want to be hit capped regardless of the fight. I argue with them weekly about gearing for hit. I'm just going to have to chalk it up to them being stubborn and not doing their research. It drivess me bonkers though. I notice a huge difference in healing one of our tanks who is more CTC focused (mastery/parry/dodge/etc) versus those that stack their hit.

If any tank is mildly geared and is having threat issues after the first 4 GCDs, then they're just plain doing it wrong.

On a completely unrelated note, I also get blamed when my Wind Shear misses while I'm healing. (Riggghhhtttt, cause healers should stack hit.)


You are absolutely correct that Hit rating still has a value in specific scenarios where the raid's strategy relies on the tank for interrupting key boss abilities. I could see having extra pieces that you keep tucked away, and bring out only for those scenarios. As a generalized gearing strategy, Hit is possibly the worst stat to be reforging into as a Warrior. As you pointed out Expertise would be a stronger overall threat boost.

I don't know that the set Dane is discussing is his generalized tanking set. It could be Dane popped into armory and caught him in his lolheroics gear, or in his designated interrupter set. I'm assuming not.
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Re: Prot Warriors

Postby thatguy » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:38 am

Chicken wrote:
thatguy wrote:On a completely unrelated note, I also get blamed when my Wind Shear misses while I'm healing. (Riggghhhtttt, cause healers should stack hit.)
Well, technically you could pick up Elemental Precision. It'll bring you to the hit cap so as long as you have 1742 spirit on your gear! Of course it also causes you to lose out on some other valuable talents, but that's just details!


Technically yes, but you might as well just put away your heal set if you're giving up Imbued Weapons, Ghost Wolf and Improved Shields.
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