[Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:44 am

What's the big deal with hitting the button every GCD? I have ARC Explosion bound to my mouse wheel, and with the amount of haste that I'm picking up, the GCD is closer to 1 than 1.5 so just scroll away. Being in melee? The only time it matters is Whirlwind. The proximity threat is a joke with Arcane Subtlety. Arcane Explosion just hits that hard, is more mobile, and is the perfect AoE spell for Heroics. I have tried many different ways to top my best AoE pull in a heroic.

H:POS - The tunnel. Pulled to middle and stopped to burn it all down. I popped PoM - AE - MI - IV - AP - AE until dead and dropped a cool 25k DPS for the pull. The best I have been able to do with FS - Blizz - is 19k with same cd's popped. Sure I could have been missing a buff, but I don't see too many buffs that are going to add up to 6k dps
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Epimer » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:58 am

Pizbit wrote:
Going to ignore the numbers from rawr since there is information lacking, namely the lack of targets, the spec it's using etc etc, easier to go with the numbers for 1 target to more easily compare.


Doesn't matter, does it? They're straight comparisons with the same number of mobs. The Arcane spec was 57/3/11, FFB was 0/53/18 and Fire/TTW was 20/51/0.

Only real boost from frost is blizzard critting for double damage instead of 1.5 isn't it? I only tried FFB for a few heroics before ditching it because I found it to be an annoying spec to play. Also typing that I recall FFB using living bomb as well to AoE, or was that when I was fire... I forget :D


I ignored Living Bomb because, as was mentioned before, mobs probably won't live for 12 seconds. All comparisons were for Flamestrike, Flamestrike, Blizzard rotations. FFB gets (again, mentioned above) double crit damage for Blizzard and 6% Frost damage from the Frost tree, plus 6% crit for Blizzard and a few school-agnostic +crit talents from Fire. Deep frost picks up a few more +crit talents and +Frost damage.

The amount of damage from your AoEs as a percentage of overall tends goes down as you don't AoE bosses, and you switch from AoE to single target when the pull reaches 3 mobs or less(or if the pull was that small to start with, you don't AoE anyway).
Obviously though it goes up again if your tank pulls like we all like to


It's still mostly AoE damage in a heroic, though, with most pulls being 3+ mobs. I'm not questioning that Arcane would be better single target dps - that's irrefutably demonstrated. But you wouldn't run a 5/5 Divinity + Aura Mastery build on your tankadin if all you were doing was heroics, so by the same logic I'm not leaning towards an optimal single target damage spec for my mage.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Epimer » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:00 am

Shoju wrote:Arcane Explosion just hits that hard, is more mobile, and is the perfect AoE spell for Heroics. I have tried many different ways to top my best AoE pull in a heroic.


Rawr disagrees (numbers in previous post), but I'm not making any claims towards the veracity of the Rawr mage module, because I have no idea either way.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:28 am

Epimer wrote:
Shoju wrote:Arcane Explosion just hits that hard, is more mobile, and is the perfect AoE spell for Heroics. I have tried many different ways to top my best AoE pull in a heroic.


Rawr disagrees (numbers in previous post), but I'm not making any claims towards the veracity of the Rawr mage module, because I have no idea either way.



I will go to the test dummies tonight and run a log. Arcane Explosion > conventional Mage AoE. There is a thread floating around here in the off spec forums that had some simple napkin math that I ran before the new 80 shine wore off the mage, and I realized I can't play a pure class.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:32 am

Here is the thread

Here is the post where it was explained on WHY Arcane Explosion hits harder.
Palmela wrote:Im assuming your arcane and therefore your AE is gonna hit much harder than FSr9/FSr8 then blizz, its becuase of the arcane talents, spell impact, clearcasting+arcane potency, and arcane empowerment. Clearcasting is checked on every mob so your almost guaranteed to get the clearcasting to proc on aoe which in turn makes your next AE crit. The reason AE isnt used in most aoe situation is becuase dead mage does no dps, in heroics if your overgeared and know your healer/tank can handle it then go ahead, pugs id stay stick with the old FS rank 9>FS rank 8>Blizz and using AP and PoM when you can.



For Arcane, Arcane Explosion is the winner. Just don't die.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Epimer » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:38 am

Shoju wrote:For Arcane, Arcane Explosion is the winner. Just don't die.


Fair enough. Now I'm just curious if Arcane's Arcane Explosion spam beats an FFB Flamestrike/Blizzard combo. Although I'm not sure I'd feel brave enough to AoE from melee range as a fresh 80 with the hit points of a damp flannel, and with no guarantee that a PuG tank is capable of putting out respectable AoE TPS.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:01 am

Epimer wrote: Although I'm not sure I'd feel brave enough to AoE from melee range as a fresh 80 with the hit points of a damp flannel, and with no guarantee that a PuG tank is capable of putting out respectable AoE TPS.


Well, I wont argue with that part of it.

As far as FFB blizz/FS AoE? I would assume there is a cut off point. Most people in toc/beginning of ICC found the trade off on using AB vs a non procc'd AM was ~2500 ish spellpower. I'm sure there is something similar for this, but I'm not sure what the break would be.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Palmela » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:54 am

There's a point in which depending on your group comp and their gear level you could burn down the mobs before the full DoT from FS. Which would still show AE spam pull above anything else with what I previously posted which Shoju quoted. Another thing with FFB, while you may be getting big numbers on AoE your boss dps is going to be pretty low, bosses are still a part of the instance. I once pulled 26k as arcane on the last boss in OK, no insanity makes the boss fight faster and a lot of fights have gimmicks that work that way, so boss dps is important.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Invisusira » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:06 am

I had no idea there was such fierce controversy over AoEing. Sure, you can pull a few more numbers... for trash. Which is going to die anyway. Is there any PRACTICAL application (ie, somewhere where the outcome of a fight will be affected) to all this bajankling? Or is all just for fun? (Which is fine too, don't get me wrong.)
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:26 am

Invisusira wrote:I had no idea there was such fierce controversy over AoEing. Sure, you can pull a few more numbers... for trash. Which is going to die anyway. Is there any PRACTICAL application (ie, somewhere where the outcome of a fight will be affected) to all this bajankling?

It speeds up Violet Hold runs you know.

Oh wait.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Palmela » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:46 am

Heroics are srs Invis. While its not that important, why not be optimal for the content your are running.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Invisusira » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:47 am

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anyway, the point here is to spec 18/0/53 imo
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Epimer » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:51 am

It's a simple premise - as stated in the OP, I won't be raiding on my mage, just chain running heroics for EoT. Outside of the very few instances that have basically no trash (AN, ToC), you spend the majority of time in heroics on trash rather than bosses. Figuring out what the best AoE spec and rotation is optimises your damage output for what you spend the majority of the instance doing.

Nothing in heroics is much of a challenge any more, so why not optimise for the majority of your damage output since the group is (most likely) going to clear the instance without issue anyway? Off the top of my head, I can only think of Xevozz in VH, The Black Knight in ToC and the first two bosses in HoR where there's any serious pressure on group DPS to down the boss quickly or suffer consequences.

So yeah, just for fun. Or min/maxing of another sort, if it comes to that.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby warden » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:59 am

Like invis said, 18/0/53. In those cases where you do have to burn a boss down fast, icy veins/coldsnap/icy veins (and getting the reset on your deep freeze with the cold snap) is full of win.
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Re: [Mage PvE]Spec for running heroics as a fresh 80 Mage

Postby Gracerath » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:09 am

It may be a bit late in the game for a fresh 80 to pick up 4T10 but once you do, nothing really beats single target arcane for quick boss fights in heroic dungeons. Cooldowns popped + ~30 second fights = 15k+ dps from you + whatever the rest of the people can dish out. No one can even come close. Until that point though, I imagine most specs are on mostly even footing, especially for AE. Who cares if you killed a pack of trash mobs 3 seconds faster?

Frost can be fun for 5 mans (and thats about all its useful for) but it doesn't even compare to what arcane can do. Personally I think that people play frost to be seen as unique, not because it performs particularly well over other PvE mage specs.
Bye space sword!
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