[Healadin] HL or FoL?

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[Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby superworm » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:03 am

Last week our HL healadin was absent on our last raiding day so I found another healadin who turned out to be FoL focused. I used to think that HL build was the better tank healer, but this guy did just well in ICC 10, including LK. And with his SP gear, he put out much higher healing in Dreamwalker fight compared to the HL one. The gear level of the 2 healadins were roughly the same.

However, it may result from the fact that we were not doing those hard encounters, e.g. HM DBS, as we only had frost wing and LK left at that night and we did normal mode on Sindragosa & LK. According to my (perhaps outdated) experience and an EJ post, HL puts out more HPS than FoL, and people should only spec FoL if they are concerned with raid healing. If your raid already has a fantastic raid healer like a druid, the healadin should us HL build and focus on tank healing.

So what's your experience? Maybe the normal mode LK just didn't hit hard enough and it doesn't matter whether to use HL or FoL? And in a min/max situation we should still use those HL healadins?
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby blakk » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:10 pm

i personaly go with HL spam. getting a sub 1.5 second holy light which heals for twice as much as a sp stacking FoL using 1 second cast spammer is worth having to worry about mana to me.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby Joanadark » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:00 pm

FoL spec is not and never was truly competitive with HL spec, except in certain extremely specific encounters such as Anub'arak heroic p3.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby sherck » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:54 pm

Well, I have a bit of another opinion on this topic.

I agree TOTALLY that for most of the time and most of the Paladins out there, HL build is the superior way to go.

However, I was playing around with Bloodlight and at his level of gear (3.1k WoWHeroes), I realized that if I went back to the Holy/Ret spec instead of Holy/Prot with typical raid buffs (5% crit) then I was over 50% crit with my Holy spells (carry a stack of FoL Glyphs incase you do not have the right raid buffs) and over 675 Haste so my GCD/FoL was at 1.0 seconds.

If I was primarily healing the same tank that I could cast my SS on, then I was guarenteed to Crit my FoL, doing around 8k healing to that target and 8k healing to my Beacon target for the grand total of 215 mana (with the 100% Illumination refund).

And I was NOT gemmed or enchanted for SP; I was still doing in full Intellect gear. If I had changed over all my stuff to SP, and went with Glyph of Seal of Light instead of SoW, then I would bet my FoL would hit for more like 9.0k healing instead of 8k.

That is a TON of tank healing every second.

Granted, you would be mana poor (I would be down about 24-26k mana) so if you needed to go heavy Holy Light spam to help out AoE or whatever, you would be OOM pretty darn quick.

So, I am not saying that I think it is the way to go. But, obviously, you observed that it can be done and done well. It is an option once you get above 675 Haste AND have 750 Crit on your gear.

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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby Joanadark » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:23 pm

That HPS output doesn't hold a candle to HL-spam, even without critting HLs.

Additionally, you are sacrificing a pretty noticeable chunk of output that scales with gear in the form of HL glyph splash. HL glyph splash does a ton of healing on the melee and off-tanks in most encounters.

Additionally you are sacrificing absorption from your Sacred Shield and losing the raid cooldown Divine Guardian if you spec that way, which is completely unacceptable for actually difficult content.

The ONLY situation where a FOL-centric playstyle was good for anything was tank healing on Anub'arak Heroic p3 because HL glyph splash was counter productive due to leeching swarm and the t9 4-peice bonus scales very well with the beefed up sacred shields gemming full-SP granted. Even then, it was debatable whether HL-spam was still better.

p.s. HPS on Dreamwalker has much more to do with playing better than it does what your gear is gemmed. In cases of equal ability, technically HL-spam is STILL better because of glyph of holy light abuse. If the fight was actually difficult, you would regemm full SP for it regardless of playstyle, and HL-spam would see even HIGHER returns because of it's better coefficient.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby superworm » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:11 pm

I looked at the combat log later and compared the 2 LK kills we did with the 2 different healadins. The HL one put out more than 12k hps while the FoL one is put out 9K. Those 12k were mostly over healing anyway. I guess it doesn't matter for normal mode LK but when you come to HM LK and go with only 2 healers, the higher hps and HL splash will shine.

@ Joanadark
That FoL build healadin did mostly use HL spamming and HL glyph on Dreamwalker, as he didn't need to worry about mana. I mean that way with his SP gear he could put out much higher healing. And the hot from FoL seems to double-dip the healing buff.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby Joanadark » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:56 am

A good healadin will have multiple gear sets and glyphs to swap based on the situation.

Holy was my OFFSPEC and I still maintained both an int set (int gems/enchants/trinkets) and a SP set (sp gems, enchants, trinkets), often with duplicates of the same item for each set.
Spell Power plate isn't exactly in high demand for lots of classes, so having multiple sets is not just easy, but something I'd EXPECT of a holy paladin with time invested into their character.

Don't confuse the comparison between FoL-spam and HL-spam as necessarily a comparison between mindlessly stacking SP in every situation and mindlessly stacking int in every situation, and then then use an example that favors SP as evidence that the FOL route is better.

The advantages of FoL-spam died late in t9 when paladins upgraded to BiS t9 gear and broke their 4-peice bonus. They are long, long dead in current t10 content.
FoL offers no HPS output advantage. HL has a much higher base value and a much higher coefficient which is even more important now at the levels of SP we are currently at in t10, even without gemming for SP.
FoL offers no longevity advantage because HL-spam is sustainable indefinitely in t10-level gear.

FoL as a playstyle offers nothing.

Additionally, specing anything other than sub-prot is retarded. It's been retarded ever since the illumination nerf. Even before that it was only really a way of compensating for having terrible gear (leveling blues/heroics gear) and something you speced out of almost immediately. Holy/sub-ret spec is long dead.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby Digren » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:10 pm

I've realized that I'm a much better FoL healer than a HL healer, as I'm better able to concentrate on healing and less on mana management (which I despise). I respecced my off spec for FoL (sub ret) and regemmed and reenchanted all my gear. I try to get whack-a-mole raid assignments rather than tank spam, but I do both on the fights I heal (Saurfang, Rotface, Blood Queen).

While my overall HPS is lower than our full-time HL healer, I find that my EHPS is about the same as far less of my casts are overheal. (And my gear is much worse as I defer to the full-time healers on all healing drops.) I'm not implying that a raid should have exclusively FoL healers; rather, I'm claiming that having both is better than having all of one or all of the other.

Edit: We don't have a full-time shaman healer. Arguments that another healing class can cover whack-a-mole better don't apply.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby blakk » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:17 pm

a FoL and a HL paladin have pretty good synergy together as the HL hit hard and the FoL stabalizes til the big heal gets there.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby Levantine » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:48 pm

I may be crazy, but I always thought that HL in T10 gear didn't take much longer than FoL to cast. Like, <1.5 seconds for HL compared to a 1sec capped FoL.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby hoho » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:29 am

I would say worst thing about FoL instead of HL is the loss of raidwall.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby blakk » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:35 am

Levantine wrote:I may be crazy, but I always thought that HL in T10 gear didn't take much longer than FoL to cast. Like, <1.5 seconds for HL compared to a 1sec capped FoL.

A t7 pally can have sub 1.5 HL but people do a FoL build for mana not speed. FoL costs so little mana they never worry about to the point where they can stack spell power and never go oom. (whereas a HL must stack int to sustain the HL healing.) it's for people that can't manage mana and use their cooldowns.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby Levantine » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:26 am

So it's a spec for people who are bad at Holy Paladins and/or WoW? I dunno, I just never got how mana management was hard. Then again I was that guy who took pride in always having stocks of mana for when the shit hit the fan in BC.
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby blakk » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:40 am

Levantine wrote:So it's a spec for people who are bad at Holy Paladins and/or WoW? I dunno, I just never got how mana management was hard.

this IMO
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Re: [Healadin] HL or FoL?

Postby Doogiehowser » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:56 am

I don't agree that it's a spec for people that don't know how to use cooldowns or manage their mana. There are pros and cons to the spec.

I've healed as both on my pally and you still use your cooldowns as a FoL spec. Not everyone who uses the FoL spec are bad players. There may be more room for error in a FoL spec in terms of mana management but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

While FoL spec maybe sub optimal for most of the paladins out there, they can still fill a niche role.
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