Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Haberjinx » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:57 am

My Ret Pally is Blitskrieg, ... Blitskrieg 6K-6.5K DPS.
Other Rets in guild: Clefthoofkid, Loliconx (both between 8K-10K dps)

First off, my first love is tanking but I was recruited into my current guild as DPS. I have been upgrading my gear little by little but my DPS still seems to lag waaay behind the other pallies in my guild and I am usually between last and 3rd from last DPS all the time. Guild leader is getting understandably and reasonably fed up.

We raid 25 mans so I have most if not all buffs, yet I have serious trouble breaking 6.5K DPS.. Once in a while I will push out 7k dps but then a few mins later i'm struggling to keep up 6.5k DPS. Last night I actually did less than 6K dps on Blood queen.

I went to the official wow forums, took some advice and it helped out some, but I am still having troube... The final conclusion however was that my latency must be holding me back. I feel though, that even with less than optimal latency I should be pulling better DPS.

-I use the right rotation. Judge>DS>CS>HOW>CONSECRATE>EXOR>Holy Wrath.
-Glyphs are good. I Switch between Glyph of vengence and exorcism sometimes
-I use CLCRET to map my rotation.
-I pop wings as soon as I get 5 seal stacks
-I get out of the fire as soon as lag permits.
-I know my class and keep learning new things all the time.

I am at a complete loss. Its humiliating even :oops: Thanks in advance for any insights.
Last edited by Haberjinx on Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Cronus » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:14 pm

Posting your armory would help to disect your gear, spec, etc. Cant really help you with out it.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Sollemn » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:03 pm

Well I am new to Pally per say but I have a raiding DK and made my Ret Pally to raid as well but to RET PVP more. That being said there are a few things I will pre-warn you about for dps in general.

1. NEED TO KNOW is a friggen awesome add on that allows you to not only see when you have a dot/ability up, but it also counts stacks. Lots say an add on is easy to mod, something that makes me feel stupid, but this one really is. You can place it just above the center of your screen to make sure you have sufficient stacks prior to wings.
2. Latency: Under Elitest Jerks Pally forums there is a sticky/post with must have add ons for pallys. I cant remember the name of it but there are two on there specifically designed for this. I guess some number-cruncher figured out long ago that spell keys or macro are dragged over to an action bar they actually dont send their purpose/function/code when pressed, the send it when depressed (Finger off the button). The add on i am referring to changes that to the more desireble effect which is when pressed. You can actually be doing your Ret rotation ( YES I KNOW FCFS just used to the phrase) and actually miss abilities and miss it cause of battle spam.
3. Macro attack to E V E R Y A B I L I T Y! Dont just drag Judgement over to your 1 button , macro a /startattack and then /cast flimflam or whatever ( I Suck super hard at macro-ese please see others for this) The reason for this is when a mob dies although DS may actually damamge the next closest target you will miss out on White damage ( Regular Melee hits). I /start attack everything but friggen divine purpose lol
4. While on the subject of macros, i have seen some sites that promote switching your libram and some that dont. Try them both. Have a macro for single targets have a start attack macro that also equips your 245 libram to help corruption kick in. When doing trash or more than one mob make a macro to switch to the 264 libram for DS pimpage. Again i am not a RET DPS ninja but i can get 12k dps on icc trash and 8-9k fully raid buffed with this methodology.
5. Can you see through all the crap? What does your play screen look like? Is it clean and clear? Do you have numbers flying through your screen (Damage)? I turned all that crap off, including titles, pet names, fart colors etc. I dont care what my swing did at that second. Keep your view screen clear. I use Bartender and i have my rotatioon (Blah) lined up from top to bottom, in the order of more-better, smaller, and lined vertically so i can see what ability pops WITHOUT moving my eyes off the target. I have Need to know display accross the top to tell me when 5 stacks have in fact stacked, and i have CLC Ret running along the bottom.
6. How do you Judgement Bro? Do you use your mouse (CLICKER)? How are your fingers lined up? Hit TANKSPOT and search for keyboard set ups they have a few recommondations. I personally use my number pad for all my dps 7/8/9/+ are my 4 abilities and on down all the way to Divine purpose ( ./Del ) That works for ME. Use different combos tho till you get comfortable. I will say that clicking is not the most efficient way to sking the cat.
7. Are you familiar with the fights? Do you know what to expect and when? Are you shooting out Judge asap? Are you reacting slow? Have you checked the details part of Recount to see if those other pallies DPS methodology matches yours? I.E are their top 3 abilities (Corruption/Melee/Divine stop for example) does that match your DPS breakdown on RECOUNT?
8. Have you checked your talent build and gemming vs theirs?
9. And what really jacked me up, Are you REALLY following CLCRET or do you find yourself pressing a button (ability) and it has already faded from the priority window of CLCRET? IE by the time you hit Div Hammer has it faded and is CLC Ret already recommending Judgement of Wise? If so i think you need to practice on a dummie. NOT TO SEE YOUR DPS but to get your fingers a certain amount of muscle memory. I went so far as to actually strafe and jump around the damn dummy till i could do it with my eyes closed.
10. Ask them what their str/attack/Crit is fully buffed. If it far and away exceeds your you may want to gem differently than them to help you have similar results. For instance the top DK in my guild is generally 1k over me in dps but he is in full 264 shiznit so he can afford to gem crit. I am behind him in str so i dont enjoy socket bonuses and just str up, that has helped close the gap.

I wont tell you to sim cause honestly i dont have a clue and most people that recommend them generally dont explain HOW to use them in laymens terms.

The biggest thing you can do is what your doing. Post, ask questions, get those guys in vent and ask them stuff and PRACTICE. 7k isnt stellar but man just a few months ago you would be G AWD. I think the difference between 7 and 12k can be a number of things but most of them small.

That was more of a general dps help, i hope you know i was speaking to you as someone struggling along with you on this journey of "If what i bring to a raid is dps then it better be a snot-ton of it" Let me know what was good for you.

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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Maat » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:46 pm

What would help the most, really, is to post a representative set of logs.

Your gemming and talenting look good. In comparison, Loliconx is using the wrong meta, has a crappy wrist enchant, is 100! hit rating over, and doesn't even spec holy down to the right talent (imp LoH? really?... I guess if your tanks are dying in normal mode). Clefthoodkid's armory is much better, just the minor detail of icewalker in lieu of assault (probably because they are 226 and he's waiting for Marrow or DW to drop something).

Your crit% is EXTREMELY low. This is partially because of your gear needing ilvl upgrades and your weapon lacking crit, but your ret peers are running 1k+ crit rating and 300+ agility, while you have 800 rating and 153 agi. The T9 2-set is amazing, but it does nothing without the crit.

1) Switch your ICC ring to the agi one, that is a simple 40 dps upgrade.
2) Find some way to get rid of those terrible boots. Maybe the crafted Bonegrinders, the leather ones from Marrowgar, or the Stompers from Deathwhisper.

Other than that it is just upgrading your weaker pieces (neck, cloak), praying for a better trinket to drop, and seeing what your logs look like.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Haberjinx » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:42 pm


1. I never heard of Need to Know. I'll check it out thank you.

2. My latency is crap! I have a new gaming computer coming in so that should help... I need to find this addon you speak of. sounds intresting. I use CLCret so I can see that lag does cause me to miss crucial steps in my rotation sometimes.

3. I never macro'd my buttons I just set amy abilities up as 6 parallel keys so that when CLCret says to use it I can just use it. I know exactly where thay are and have very little trouble keeping a target dummy rotation going, however with the lag that I currently get I end up spamming a button like crazy to get some moves off before the next one pops up..

4. I do switch librams but not with a macro. I actually have the 2 librams that I use in raids hotkeyed on my g15 side buttons. Intrestingly enough I top DPS on trash a lot at 12k even 13K dps... the lowest I get to on trash is about 8.5. DPS.

5. Seeing through all the crap IS actually a problem for me but its not the numbers its all my warnings and ability indicators popping up... i'm glad you mentioned that... I'll get that cleaneed up asap. I use Power auras, DBM, SCT, etc.

6. I only click for potions or other consumables. My fingers line up horizontally on the keyboard in a whay that allows me to get to all my abilities fast.

7. Yes I know all fights... I know when to move... and I do it well for the most part unless lag kicks me in the butt... Last night on blood queen I kept getting selected for her abilities.. I noticed that whenever I got linked my lag went through the roof.. With my screen skipping all around, I couldn't even tell if I was running the right direction or not lol. After the fight I noticed that I had virus protection running in the background. :roll:
Even with this lag I feel like I should be pulling at least 7K DPS.

8. Yes my gems and talents are optimal

9. I hit whatever is lit. On a target dummy that is exceedingly easy and I actually am at the point that I hardly even need to look at clcret to see what is coming next.. on certain raid fights however lag makes it very difficuly to pump out abilities right as they come up. I manage for the most part but it just seems like the global cooldowns get longer and longer. I know lag has something to do with my DPS output but it just seems to be another issue somewhere.

10. We are gemeed just about the same but they do outgear me.. My problem is not that they out DPS me but the fact that the Gap is sooo large.

I dont know hot to sim or log either but will learn today.

Thank you very much.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby lythac » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:01 pm

Checked to see if you have the max rank abilities on your bars (and trained)?

Sorry if that sounds bad but it affects a large number of people and its not something that people think to check.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Haberjinx » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:10 pm

Yep I have the max ranks for exorcism and hammer of wrath . The other abilities only have one rank.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Haberjinx » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:14 pm

Thanks Maat. I went and picked up that agility ring and will try it out as soon as I get my raid spot back...
As for boots... due to money and time I guess i'll be waiting for better boots to drop.

I'm learning to do logs now and will include some in my future posts

Thank You.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:33 pm

Well the only comment I can make is...

you should be going for those +4 and +6 str bonuses. str/crit gems pull ahead of pure str gems with 2pcT9 and better gear.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby rodos » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:54 pm

Haberjinx wrote:3. I never macro'd my buttons I just set amy abilities up as 6 parallel keys so that when CLCret says to use it I can just use it. I know exactly where thay are and have very little trouble keeping a target dummy rotation going, however with the lag that I currently get I end up spamming a button like crazy to get some moves off before the next one pops up..

I'm in a similar situation with bad latency (WTB faster speed of light or smaller Pacific Ocean).

My understanding of the how the "spell queue" works is that spamming the button actually makes things worse, but this might only apply to spells with a cast time. Given a 150 ms latency each way (300 ms ping) this is essentially what happens:

0 ms - You press butan. WoW client triggers a GCD, deactivating your button
150 ms - Server gets command, determines that previous GCD or ability CD has not yet expired
200 ms - Ability CD or GCD expires
300 ms - Response from server says you can't cast yet, client cancels CGD and reactivates button
310 ms - Your button mashing sends the command again
460 ms - Server receives valid command and pwns the bad dude with righteous force

In this example your command was executed 260 ms after the CD ended. A better scenario would be:

0 ms - Using your ninja skills you determine CD is not finished and you wait
51 ms - You press butan
200 ms - Ability CD or GCD expires
201 ms - Your command reaches the server and holy pwnage is executed immediately

In other words, if you can preempt the latency, and press your ability so that it arrives at the server just after the CD or GCD expires then you minimise the effects of latency. Now, if you're a caster you have Quartz or something that estimates the latency and colours in part of your castbar so you know when to press the next button. Does anyone know if it's possible to configure Quartz (or other addon) to show something similar for CGDs and ability cooldowns.

Disclaimer: I don't remember where I read this, so it might be total BS, or I might just be misinterpreting things.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Maat » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:39 am

I don't know if it is sufficient to overcome lag, but you could try one of the addons that activate your keybinds on keypress, rather than on keylift. It helps me a bit, even running at 50ms.

The one I use is SnowfallKeypress.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:45 am

Lag kills ret dps pretty badly, you can easily get thousands of dps difference in rawr between 50 and 500 ping on ret. You can afaik not queue up instant attacks while on GCD, so you can directly add your ping to your gcd.

For me with 50 ping rawr shows me 10,850 dps, with 500 ping it drops to 9,414.
This is a limitation you cannot overcome, before you start hitting yourself for doing things wrong try loading your character in rawr and setting all variables appropriately (Delay on the rotation tab you your ping). And check what it spits out.

Note that if you are not using a key press mod you can probably add at least 100ms to your ping depending how you are pressing your buttons, also you might not be hitting them at the right moment. What rotation you use actually matters very little for ret, using a skill as soon as GCD is over though is massively important (and this is why lag hurts ret quite bad)
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Haberjinx » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:03 am

Thanks for the very informative replies. I just downloaded SnowfallKeypress and will try to get into some kind of 25 man as soon as possible to see how much that helps. I cant wait till my new CPU gets here. AVA direct takes forever... but I guess that might be a good thing.

I ordered a new computer a couple weeks ago from AVA Direct.
The good thing is that they let you choose from so many options for what goes into your computer. I added everything that I mindlessly and afordably could. :shock:
Last edited by Haberjinx on Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Lore » Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:34 am

How bad is your latency, exactly? ... cyFix.html helped me quite a bit (around 200ms difference)
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Re: Geez! My Ret DPS is bad!

Postby Haberjinx » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:32 am

Noramlly between 300 - 600 MS during 25 man raids. I was doing Putricide and I was at 1600.

I'll check that out when I get home. Thanks Lore.
Last edited by Haberjinx on Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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