Remove Advertisements

[DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:57 pm

Hokahey wrote:2) I can't answer for sure. I could see it going either way, but my suspicion is it hastes both weapons.

My guess is that each weapon timer is completely independent, that you only parry with your MH weapon, and that it only speeds up the MH weapon timer. But that's just an educated guess. There's no reason that it couldn't speed up the OH timer as well, but it doesn't seem logical for it to do so. We'd need to know for sure before I can edit the code.

If you can parry with either weapon (not sure why it would be this way, or how it would choose which weapon did the parry-ing), then I'd guess that a parry on the MH weapon speeds up the MH timer, while a parry on the OH weapon speeds up the OH timer. It would be unnecessarily complicated for a MH parry to speed up both MH and OH timers, and similarly for OH parries. But I'd like to know for sure before I mess with the code.

Provided the simple model is correct (you and the boss both only parry with your MH weapon, and your MH weapon is the only one that gets hasted), then it's a simple fix because OH weapon attacks will be a static rate and can be lumped into A. If OH weapons get hasted too, it might be trickier - I could lump them together in B and Ra, but it may not be that simple depending on the exact details of the mechanics.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7717
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Hokahey » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:47 pm

theckhd wrote:
Hokahey wrote:2) I can't answer for sure. I could see it going either way, but my suspicion is it hastes both weapons.

My guess is that each weapon timer is completely independent, that you only parry with your MH weapon, and that it only speeds up the MH weapon timer. But that's just an educated guess. There's no reason that it couldn't speed up the OH timer as well, but it doesn't seem logical for it to do so. We'd need to know for sure before I can edit the code.

If you can parry with either weapon (not sure why it would be this way, or how it would choose which weapon did the parry-ing), then I'd guess that a parry on the MH weapon speeds up the MH timer, while a parry on the OH weapon speeds up the OH timer. It would be unnecessarily complicated for a MH parry to speed up both MH and OH timers, and similarly for OH parries. But I'd like to know for sure before I mess with the code.

Provided the simple model is correct (you and the boss both only parry with your MH weapon, and your MH weapon is the only one that gets hasted), then it's a simple fix because OH weapon attacks will be a static rate and can be lumped into A. If OH weapons get hasted too, it might be trickier - I could lump them together in B and Ra, but it may not be that simple depending on the exact details of the mechanics.


Frankly, I have no clue how the game interprets a parried attack. I generally defer to the far more mechanically educated people to tell me how these things work in game.

I wasn't thinking the game was deriving which weapon actually does the parrying, just that result of "Parried" occurs on an attack against the target, and the time to the target's next attack is reduced. My thinking here was that the reduction in time would be to both weapon swing timers.

However, even then, the simplest view of this would be the next *MH* attack, as opposed to next attack by either weapon, or both wepons, so you're probably correct, as I think on it further.
Hokahey
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:42 am

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Alixander » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:30 pm

If no one else has done it by then, I'll go run some heroics next week on my DK in my tank spec and log it (I'd do it tonight, but I have my first trial raid for my new guild... glee! And this weekend I'll be out of town skiing).

The key information (if someone else would beat me to it) is the swing speeds of your weapons. Obviously, using a slow/slow setup would be best for gauging the effects of parry haste since if a parry applies to both weapons, seeing the difference on a 2.5 or 2.6 speed weapon would be much more obvious than a 1.5 to 1.7 speed weapon, so keep that in mind. Also, you'd want two different weapons so you can differentiate between them.

EDIT: Additionally, it would be beneficial to confirm (instead of just theorize) that Rune Strikes "activate" off of only MH strikes, then also do damage as if the OH was modified by the RS damage modifier. The other option is that RS activates on the next swing, whether it's MH or OH and does damage as RS does (150% of MH + OH damage).
Alixander
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 11:51 am
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Hammerjudge » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:59 am

theckhd wrote:I only calculated for 2h DKs, but recalculating for DW would probably be relatively simple once I checked on a few things:

1) I'd need to remind myself how dual-wield swing timers work - I assume they're independent of one another?

2) How do MH/OH swings work with parry-haste - does a parry reduce only the MH swing timer, or both?

3) Once i had estimates for MH and OH swing timers, and clarified those two mechanics, we could determine how to modify base_swing, A, and B to run the sim for DW DK's


1. Independent, yes.
2. I would trust Splug's statement:
Splug wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:As a dual-wield DK I did some quick testing on how the Strikes behave when hitting with both weapons. With the talent Threat of Thassarian, each Death Strike, Obliterate, Plague Strike, Blood Strike, and Frost Strike counts as two attacks calculated seperately, so each Strike as DW Frost has two chances to result in a parry.
This is incorrect. If the main hand connects, the offhand automatically connects as well. If the main hand misses, the offhand attack is never rolled. They are parried or land as a unit.


3. When I did some modelling on a similar topic recently (necessary expertise for a DW tank to have equivalent parry-haste chance as a warrior), I modelled slow/slow, slow/medium, slow/fast, and fast/fast. I would not expect you to do that too, but just pick the extremes: 2.6/2.6 and 1.5/1.5.

Secondly, I checked the first principles you'd used as the basis for your final conclusion (in terms of parryable attacks per second), and found that for dual-wield, it is quite close to the Blood figures; for DW frost, special attacks will be 30/minute (ie. 0.5 per second). My analysis was not as mathematically sound as yours will be, but perhaps a helpful in some way. My basis was a very well-trusted simulator developed by Kahorie, which allowed me to work out parryable attacks per minute.

One of the key factors is that DW frost tanks have a greater chance to proc howling blast from obliterates (both hands can proc it), and of course HB cannot be parried (it's a spell). My post has a table outlining the proportions.

Thanks for doing this work for not just the maintankadins, but other tank classes as well. It's hugely appreciated.
Hammerjudge
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby tlitp » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:45 am

PC >> NPC (read : player attacking target)
1. autoattacks : each weapon/"hand" has its own attack table; racial expertise can and does lead to different chances of dodge/parry events
2. single-weapon specials (for instance Sinister Strike) use a modified table based on the MH; the expertise used is that of the MH, but the base chance to miss is only 8%, not the regular 27% for DW
Note : there are some SW specials (e.g. Shiv) that are explicitly coded to use the attack table of the OH. They are a very rare breed, though.
3. double-weapon specials (for instance Mutilate) are treated almost similarly to single-weapon specials; the attack table of the OH is not used at all in the first roll (therefore this type of attacks cannot cause DPEs)
Note : these specials use a two-roll system, with the crit chances (the second roll) being computed individually (at least for rogues; not sure of the DKs)

NPC >> PC
1. autoattacks : only the MH is subject to PH effects
2. avoidable specials : only the MH is subject to PH effects
Note : DW NPCs (as rare as they are) seem to use the same mechanics as a PC would
User avatar
tlitp
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:25 pm

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:32 am

That's extremely good news, I think. If I'm reading that correctly, it means that the code will work properly as-is with appropriate values of A and B. I'm not going to bother considering racial expertise, so MH and OH should have the same parry chance.

A will still be determined by GCD-limited effects (i.e. those that don't benefit from parry-haste), which would now also include off-hand swings.

B will simply be determined by main hand effects.

For 2H DK's, I used:
B=1+0.3*(1-boss_avoid/100);
A=0.375;


Provided DW rotations aren't significantly different from 2H, the only change now should be that A gains an additional 1/off_hand_speed term.

If someone can suggest good MH/OH speeds, I can run the simulation for DWDKs and post the results.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7717
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Hammerjudge » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:28 pm

To be anally accurate (which is not necessary for the purposes of this analysis, I'm very happy with what you've done in the other OP, Theck): DW Frost, whilst it has the same rotation, does not have the same profile in terms of damage output. It has more howling blasts because it has more Rime procs because the offhand can also proc, and Howling Blast cannot be parried.
Hammerjudge
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:34 am

Hammerjudge wrote:To be anally accurate (which is not necessary for the purposes of this analysis, I'm very happy with what you've done in the other OP, Theck): DW Frost, whilst it has the same rotation, does not have the same profile in terms of damage output. It has more howling blasts because it has more Rime procs because the offhand can also proc, and Howling Blast cannot be parried.


OK, so I would assume this only modifies the value of A since it's GCD-limited attacks?

If so, feel free to suggest a more reasonable value, or an estimate like I have for warriors (X parryable abilities every Y GCDs).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7717
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Ballador » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:08 am

From my exp as a DW frost tank using Splugs frost rotation with no Howling blast glyph since this is for Boss Tanking. You will be looking at 7-9 parryable GCD attacks in a 20sec rotation, 7 being the lowest possible and 10 being the highest but with RNG I dont think it will be very likely that a DW DK wont at least get 1 rime proc after 4 Oblits. 8 or 9 is probably the best choice, I know Freezing Fog for me at least seems like it is always up. Howling blast will just end up replacing the Frost strikes there by lowering the number of parryable attacks.

One thing that I couldn't tell if you factored in or not since it has been putting out a large chunk of threat is that DW DKs are getting a larger number of Rune Strikes due to the faster weapon speeds. So even though we are now making more white attacks more of the white attacks are also now becoming rune strikes and are not parryable. Another thing that I just am not aware of, since Rune Strike now attacks with both weapons does it reset the swing timer for the offhand. I'm not sure if any of this will have any real effect on the numbers but just throwing it out there.
Ballador
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:12 pm

Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Hokahey » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:44 pm

Ballador wrote:One thing that I couldn't tell if you factored in or not since it has been putting out a large chunk of threat is that DW DKs are getting a larger number of Rune Strikes due to the faster weapon speeds. So even though we are now making more white attacks more of the white attacks are also now becoming rune strikes and are not parryable. Another thing that I just am not aware of, since Rune Strike now attacks with both weapons does it reset the swing timer for the offhand. I'm not sure if any of this will have any real effect on the numbers but just throwing it out there.


A larger *percentage* of 2h weapon swings would be Rune Strikes, since less weapon swings take place with a 2h weapon in a given set of time. This actually makes Expertise less efficient as avoidance than for DW, and probably a large part of why DKs didn't seem to value Expertise as much on Theck's graph, since the graph shows the value of a DK using a 2h weapon.

A larger *raw number* of Rune Strikes would likely occur while dual-wielding. The faster the weapons, the smaller the percentage of auto attacks would be Rune Strikes over time, due to the limitations on Rune Strike preventing you from using the ability on every single weapon swing (assuming all else is equal).
Hokahey
 
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:42 am

Previous

Return to Off-specs & Other Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest