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[DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:32 pm

I'm nearly done with the mathematical backbone here. I have expressions for each class, but I need to fill in a few gaps. I decided that using the avoidance values for a paladin may not make much sense for a druid, for example.

Here's the declaration statement that has all of the relevant information - bolded items need to be filled in yet. As you can see, the paladin version is already one, using stats that roughly approximate the gear I'm currently using:

--------
if strcmp(class,'paladin')

B=(2-boss_avoid./100);
A=(2-boss_avoid./100)./6;
Gear_Dodge=570;
Gear_Parry=380;
Gear_Defense=745;
Gear_AGI=55;
Base_AGI=90;
base_parry=10;
base_dodge=10;
base_miss=5;
base_swing=1.3;

elseif strcmp(class,'warrior')

B=1;
A=33/60;
Gear_Dodge=0;
Gear_Parry=0;
Gear_Defense=0;
Gear_AGI=0;

Base_AGI=90;
base_parry=0;
base_dodge=0;
base_miss=0;

base_swing=1.3;

elseif strcmp(class,'druid')

B=1;
A=0.5;
Gear_Dodge=0;
Gear_Parry=0;
Gear_Defense=0;
Gear_AGI=0;
Base_AGI=0;
base_parry=0;
base_dodge=0;
base_miss=0;

base_swing=1.8;

elseif strcmp(class,'deathknight')

B=1+0.3*(1-boss_avoid);
A=0.375;
Gear_Dodge=0;
Gear_Parry=0;
Gear_Defense=0;
Gear_AGI=0;

Base_AGI=90;
base_parry=0;
base_dodge=0;
base_miss=0;
base_swing=0;


end
--------
Anything you can contribute here is appreciated. If you're a well-geared DK, reading the net dodge/parry/defense rating values off of your armory is fine, that's what I did for Paladins.

base_parry, base_dodge, and base_miss are the values not subject to DR, in other words your naked parry/dodge/miss along with talented contributions.

base_swing is your swing speed after raid buffs are accounted for.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Ballador » Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:55 pm

Again pulled From Rawr(@work only source of WOWinfo besides this website)

Night Elf Druid
base-Parry=0
base-Dodge=17.538
base-Miss=7.000
base-AGI=94

Tauren Druid
base-Parry=0
base-Dodge=17.308
base-Miss=5.000
base-AGI=83

Gear_Dodge=~250
Gear_Defence=~200
Gear_Parry=0(It better be anyways :) )
Gear_AGI=~1125(This is just from gear/gems/enchants)

Now druid have talents that increase there AGI/all stats by x% so if we are factoring that in aswell my druid unbuffed has ~1500 AGI. Depending on how you gem and other factors can change these numbers a bit. For this I used no proffesion gems/enchants or PVP gear enven though in some cases especially the weapon it may be considered BIS.

Edit: Looking at it futher i noticed Rawr Adds in the AGI from My idol, it is likly a 100% uptime but not garanteed. loosing that it would put me around 1345AGI. but taking my Gear_AGI and adding the 8% bonus we get from talents its still not adding up, could be a Rawr thing. I'll edit again if I figure it out.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby amh » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:25 pm

elseif strcmp(class,'deathknight')

B=1+0.3*(1-boss_avoid);
A=0.375;
Gear_Dodge=492;
Gear_Parry=760;
Gear_Defense=740;
Gear_AGI=22;
Base_AGI=109;
base_parry=6.08;
base_dodge=9.95;
base_miss=5;
base_swing=2.88;

base_swing=2.88;

3.60 with current weapon. Should be around 2.88 when you include WF and Swift Retribution, but you should run that number to verify.

Worth noting that DK avoidance is a bit higher than what you would get from the ratings, assuming you use Stoneskin Gargoyle (+25 defense skill on weapon). The net tooltip avoidance gets updated when you equip a Stoneskin'd weapon, but the ratings stay the same.

Also note that a death knight's parry-rating increases with raid-buffs due to Forceful Deflection. In that set I have 1476 strength unbuffed. Adding buffs:

200 (Strength-sigil) + 155 (Horn of Winter) + 37 (GotW) * 1.1 = 392, or 15,68 additional rating. If blood, multiply that by 1.08 to include Veteran of the Third War plus Abomination's Might.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Ballador » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:29 am

This is from a Night Elf Warrior friend of mine in his MT/Hardmode set

Gear_Dodge=675;
Gear_Parry=430;
Gear_Defense=861;
Gear_AGI=52;
Base_AGI=118;
base_Parry=10.00;
base_Dodge=10.06;
base_Miss=7.00;
base_Swing=1.21; (1.5sec weapon)

Base AGI is going to vary from Race to Race and as he tells me, Night Elfs have a racial +2% chance to be missed
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:09 am

Ballador wrote:Now druid have talents that increase there AGI/all stats by x% so if we are factoring that in aswell my druid unbuffed has ~1500 AGI. Depending on how you gem and other factors can change these numbers a bit. For this I used no proffesion gems/enchants or PVP gear enven though in some cases especially the weapon it may be considered BIS.

Edit: Looking at it futher i noticed Rawr Adds in the AGI from My idol, it is likly a 100% uptime but not garanteed. loosing that it would put me around 1345AGI. but taking my Gear_AGI and adding the 8% bonus we get from talents its still not adding up, could be a Rawr thing. I'll edit again if I figure it out.

For the simulations, I calculate total agility as follows:
Code: Select all
AGI=floor((Base_AGI+Gear_AGI+SoE+MotW).*BoK);


I then use (AGI-Base_AGI) in the diminishing returns calculations. So if a druid has talents that increase their agility before kings, and that ability is multiplicative, I'll need to modify the code slightly for druids (which isn't hard, I'll just move the AGI expression into the if statements and use a slightly different one for druids.

Which talent/talents should I be looking at here?
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:16 am

Ballador wrote:This is from a Night Elf Warrior friend of mine in his MT/Hardmode set

Gear_Dodge=675;
Gear_Parry=430;
Gear_Defense=861;
Gear_AGI=52;
Base_AGI=118;
base_Parry=10.00;
base_Dodge=10.06;
base_Miss=7.00;
base_Swing=1.21; (1.5sec weapon)

Base AGI is going to vary from Race to Race and as he tells me, Night Elfs have a racial +2% chance to be missed

I'm going to try and normalize things across classes as much as possible, so I'll use the 90 base AGI of a human.

I note that your warrior friend has a total of 1966 dodge+parry+defense rating, which is a good bit above the 1695 total I have in my set. I assume that's partly due to gem/gearing decisions (I tend to go heavy EH, I suspect he's going heavy Avoidance, or else he's in all 258 gear). I'd probably like to bring his total down by around 266. If I just scale everything, I get the following:
582 dodge
371 parry
742 defense
which is pretty much in line with my paladin's gear settings. I may just stick with the paladin values for consistency.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:29 am

amh wrote:elseif strcmp(class,'deathknight')

B=1+0.3*(1-boss_avoid);
A=0.375;
Gear_Dodge=492;
Gear_Parry=760;
Gear_Defense=740;
Gear_AGI=22;
Base_AGI=109;
base_parry=6.08;
base_dodge=9.95;
base_miss=5;
base_swing=2.88;

base_swing=2.88;

3.60 with current weapon. Should be around 2.88 when you include WF and Swift Retribution, but you should run that number to verify.

Worth noting that DK avoidance is a bit higher than what you would get from the ratings, assuming you use Stoneskin Gargoyle (+25 defense skill on weapon). The net tooltip avoidance gets updated when you equip a Stoneskin'd weapon, but the ratings stay the same.

Also note that a death knight's parry-rating increases with raid-buffs due to Forceful Deflection. In that set I have 1476 strength unbuffed. Adding buffs:

200 (Strength-sigil) + 155 (Horn of Winter) + 37 (GotW) * 1.1 = 392, or 15,68 additional rating. If blood, multiply that by 1.08 to include Veteran of the Third War plus Abomination's Might.


Ok, so for starters, you have 1992 rating. The difference is mostly due to Forceful Deflection, which adds 369 rating. Given that this is a talent, I'll keep your numbers, since 1992-369=1623, which is actually a little less than the warrior and paladin get from gear alone.

Including Stoneskin Gargoyle is another 123 defense rating (25*4.92). It looks like you'd also get 98 rating from the 392 STR from raid buffs, and those two blood talents would increase that to 106. I'll use 100 rating from raid buffs as a safe estimate.

That means the DK numbers should be:
492 dodge
760+100=860 parry
740+123=863 defense

Again, I'll use a base agility of 90 for a human, but otherwise I've used the numbers you've given.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Ballador » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:56 am

theckhd wrote:For the simulations, I calculate total agility as follows:
Code: Select all
AGI=floor((Base_AGI+Gear_AGI+SoE+MotW).*BoK);


I then use (AGI-Base_AGI) in the diminishing returns calculations. So if a druid has talents that increase their agility before kings, and that ability is multiplicative, I'll need to modify the code slightly for druids (which isn't hard, I'll just move the AGI expression into the if statements and use a slightly different one for druids.

Which talent/talents should I be looking at here?


The 2 Talents are Imp Mark of the Wild 2/2 = 2% all stats and Survival of the fittest 3/3 = 6% all stats. both imo are required talents.

Yes the Warrior is in a mix of 245/258 gear he was the only one I had access to since my Warrior is still chalk full of ilvl200 crap. I would assume using your paladin's gear value would be fine considering our tier gear is identical to Warrior gear except for some block value. One thing about the AGI, a Human Warriors base agility is 113 a reasonable difference compared to human pally. It may not be enough to make a difference in the long run from Race to Race, but a 23 agility difference in class is noticeable.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:36 am

Ballador wrote:The 2 Talents are Imp Mark of the Wild 2/2 = 2% all stats and Survival of the fittest 3/3 = 6% all stats. both imo are required talents.

Yes the Warrior is in a mix of 245/258 gear he was the only one I had access to since my Warrior is still chalk full of ilvl200 crap. I would assume using your paladin's gear value would be fine considering our tier gear is identical to Warrior gear except for some block value. One thing about the AGI, a Human Warriors base agility is 113 a reasonable difference compared to human pally. It may not be enough to make a difference in the long run from Race to Race, but a 23 agility difference in class is noticeable.

Hm, that's a good point. For some reason I was thinking that base stats depended only on class, but they obviously scale differently per level between classes.

So I'm now using 113 as the base agility for a human warrior. Amh gave 109 as a DK's base agility, is that also for a human?

The expression for druid agility is now
Code: Select all
AGI=floor((Base_AGI+Gear_AGI+SoE+MotW).*BoK).*1.08

which should properly account for the talents. Thus, Gear_AGI should now just be a simple sum of agility from gear (and idol proc).
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Ballador » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:15 pm

Ill let you sort out the base value you want to use but here are the naked base AGI for all Tank Class Races. (I'm not a 100% on the DK tank specs but im pretty sure none of them give them +AGI)
Human Pally
base_AGI=90;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5;

Dwarf Pally
base_AGI=86;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5;

Draenei Pally
base_AGI=87;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5;

Blood Elf Pally
base_AGI=92;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Night Elf Druid
base_AGI=94;
base_Parry=0;
base_Dodge=17.54;
base_Miss=7.00;

Tauren Druid
base_AGI=83;
base_Parry=0;
base_Dodge=17.31;
base_Miss=5.00;

Draenei Warrior
base_AGI=110;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Dwarf Warrior
base_AGI=109;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Gnome Warrior
base_AGI=116;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Human Warrior
base_AGI=113;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Night Elf Warrior
base_AGI=118;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=7.00;

Orc Warrior
base_AGI=110;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Tauren Warrior
base_AGI=108;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Troll Warrior
base_AGI=115;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Undead Warrior
base_AGI=111;
base_Parry=10;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

For Death knights as I said before not 100% sure what there Tank specs normally pick up. From what i can tell the only talents that would add to there base avoidance is Frigid Deathplate 3/3 points for 3% chance to be missed. considering how far deep it is in frost i doubt blood or unholy tanks get it. Aticipation in the unholy tree is required so every tank spec will have that. So if Frost spec add 3% base_miss otherwise these values should be correct.

Draenei DeathKnight
base_AGI=109;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Dwarf DeathKnight
base_AGI=108;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Gnome DeathKnight
base_AGI=115;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Human DeathKnight
base_AGI=112;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Night Elf DeathKnight
base_AGI=117;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=7.00;

Blood Elf DeathKnight
base_AGI=114;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Orc DeathKnight
base_AGI=109;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Tauren DeathKnight
base_AGI=107;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Troll DeathKnight
base_AGI=114;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

Undead DeathKnight
base_AGI=110;
base_Parry=6;
base_Dodge=10;
base_Miss=5.00;

One Final note the dodge and in the case of DKs parry vaired +/- 0.05% depending on an above/belowe avarage AGI/STR stat.

TL;DR

90AGI base for pallies
113AGI base for Warriors
111AGI base for DKs

for druids idk ill leave that up to you.

Edit:Grammer
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Hokahey » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:25 pm

theckhd wrote:Ok, so for starters, you have 1992 rating. The difference is mostly due to Forceful Deflection, which adds 369 rating. Given that this is a talent, I'll keep your numbers, since 1992-369=1623, which is actually a little less than the warrior and paladin get from gear alone.



As an irrelevant correction, Forceful Deflection is a passive base class ability for all DKs from level 55 onward, not a talent.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:10 am

Just wanted to return to this topic to let you know that despite being busy, I had not forgotten about you. I've finally found time to finish the calculation for all 4 classes.

The results are here, with a TLDR summary at the beginning (sorry about the formatting, hopefully Aergis fixes the list bbcode soon):

  • For Icecrown Citadel, expertise is roughly 91% as effective as dodge rating for reducing incoming damage, assuming a boss swing speed of 1.4 seconds (after JotJ). It varies significantly with boss attack speed though, from 78% @ 1.2 to 154% @ 2.4 speed.
    • For Warriors, this range narrows to 52-102%, with an "average" of 60% at 1.4-speed.
    • For Druids, it's 49-98%, with an "average" of 60%
    • For Death Knights, the range becomes 36-71%, with an "average" of 46%.
  • For bosses outside of Icecrown, we would use an average swing speed of around 2.0, giving average values of 87% for paladins (53%-104% range), 57% for warriors (30%-69%), 56% for druids (28%-68%), and 29%-45% for Death Knights (28%-52%).

    All of these can be seen in the plots in the "results" section.

Though I highly recommend going to the post to see the pretty plots. :P

The next step, I think, is to update the gear set slightly to reflect T10 levels of avoidance. Here is the current gear load-out for each class:
Code: Select all
                 Paladin   Warrior     Druid       DK
Dodge Rating       570       570        250       492
Parry Rating       380       380          0       860
Defense Rating     745       745        200       863
Agi (from gear)     55        55       1125        22
base Agi            90       113         94       111
base parry%         10        10          0         6.08
base dodge%         10        10.06      17.5       9.95
base miss%           5         5          7         5
base swing           1.3       1.3        1.8       2.88


If you guys have suggestions for T10-level sets, that would be great.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Hokahey » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:08 am

Wow, utterly fantastic. You amaze me. Thanks Theck! I'm surprised Warrior resulted so much lower in efficiency than Paladins.

I know I'm being a bother about this, and if the question was answered in there, I'm sorry, but was the weapon attack speed for class a factor for the value, and if so, what speed did you settle on for Paladins, Warriors, and DKs?

If so, did you only evaluate DKs as 2h, or as both 2h and DW?

I'm *not* requesting you go any more out of your way on this, just trying to resolve my own curiousity. Thanks again!
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:22 am

The weapon speeds are in the table in my previous post, at the very bottom. You're correct that weapon speed made a noticeable difference - that's the primary reason DKs get such poor efficiency values. Interestingly, bears weren't penalized as much by slow swing times as DKs were, but I believe that has more to do with the fact that they can't parry (which messes around with some things - for one thing it means being parried doesn't speed-up their swing timer and generate more parries).

I only calculated for 2h DKs, but recalculating for DW would probably be relatively simple once I checked on a few things:

1) I'd need to remind myself how dual-wield swing timers work - I assume they're independent of one another?

2) How do MH/OH swings work with parry-haste - does a parry reduce only the MH swing timer, or both?

3) Once i had estimates for MH and OH swing timers, and clarified those two mechanics, we could determine how to modify base_swing, A, and B to run the sim for DW DK's
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Hokahey » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:16 pm

theckhd wrote:The weapon speeds are in the table in my previous post, at the very bottom. You're correct that weapon speed made a noticeable difference - that's the primary reason DKs get such poor efficiency values. Interestingly, bears weren't penalized as much by slow swing times as DKs were, but I believe that has more to do with the fact that they can't parry (which messes around with some things - for one thing it means being parried doesn't speed-up their swing timer and generate more parries).

I only calculated for 2h DKs, but recalculating for DW would probably be relatively simple once I checked on a few things:

1) I'd need to remind myself how dual-wield swing timers work - I assume they're independent of one another?

2) How do MH/OH swings work with parry-haste - does a parry reduce only the MH swing timer, or both?

3) Once i had estimates for MH and OH swing timers, and clarified those two mechanics, we could determine how to modify base_swing, A, and B to run the sim for DW DK's


Ah, I see it now. /facepalm

1) Yes, each weapon swing is independent, both in terms of attack speed and attack result, unless its a special attack and the DK is talented into Threat of Thassarian (all DW DKs *should* be).

2) I can't answer for sure. I could see it going either way, but my suspicion is it hastes both weapons.

3) 2.6 or 1.3 base weapon speed, depending on whether they are using fast 1h or slow 1h weapons (which I imagine makes things even more complex, since there are 2 distinct camps on the subject). Making things worse, some may be using 1 of each (in this scenario, I'd say its safest to assume the slower weapon is in the MH).

I imagine the simplest solution would be to assume they will be using the same tanking weapons used by Paladins and Warriors, which are almost universally fast. It seems this is what I most commonly see from DW DKs who are tanking, as opposed to using slower DPS weapons.
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