[DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

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[DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:27 pm

So, I'm trying to gather a bit of info on these two classes so I can finish up an article about expertise and mitigation. I've already got paladins and warriors covered for now. But I need some help with DK's and Druids.

1) Druids - I leveled a tank-spec feral in BC, and had a lot of fun with him. But I don't really remember the rotation that well. I used Mangle a lot, I think. And Swipe, and a Maul here and there... and that's about all I remember.

If I remember correctly, Ferals can't parry. So we don't have to worry about player parry haste. However, their attacks can be parried (right?), so we can look at boss parry haste (and thus the effective value of expertise).

So what I need to know is simply: How many parry-able attacks does a feral make per second (or per rotation, per 60 sec, etc) fully raid buffed.

Example: If a feral makes 30 auto attacks, 3 swipes, 5 mangles, and 10 Mauls in 30 seconds (those numbers are completely made up), and all of them can be parried, it's simply 48 attacks in 30 seconds or 1.6 attacks per second.

2) Death Knights - If you thought I was clueless about feral tanking, I'm a gibbering idiot when it comes to DK's. I played through the starting zone, and killed some stuff.. badly. I know you have these rune-y things, and spells use them, and they regenerate (I think?). And that's about where my knowledge ends (right where it begins, coincidentally).

So for DK's, I need to know two pieces of information:
  • How many auto-attacks do you make per second (or per X seconds) fully raid buffed? More specifically, I need to know how many attacks you make per second that benefit from parry-haste, so if there are other attacks you have that get sped up via this mechanism, include those too. Basically anything that's tied to or related to your auto-attacks.
  • How many "other" attacks do you make per second that are not affected by parry haste?

I assume the answers are different for 2h-tanking and DW-tanking, so I'll need info on both.

Example: For a paladin, melee attacks and Holy Vengeance applications both can be parried, and both get affected by parry-haste. Hammer of the Righteous, on the other hand, is cast every 6 seconds and gets no benefit from parry-haste.

I asked about this over at Tankspot, but I haven't got any responses yet, and things tend to move faster over here anyway. Plus they mentioned something about auto-attacks converting to Rune Strikes, at which point I knew I was in over my head.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby amh » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:33 pm

theckhd wrote:If I remember correctly, Ferals can't parry.


Correct

However, their attacks can be parried (right?)


Correct

How many auto-attacks do you make per second (or per X seconds) fully raid buffed? More specifically, I need to know how many attacks you make per second that benefit from parry-haste, so if there are other attacks you have that get sped up via this mechanism, include those too. Basically anything that's tied to or related to your auto-attacks.
How many "other" attacks do you make per second that are not affected by parry haste?


Is Freya an all right log to take data from? http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/de ... #damageout

Rune Strike replaces regular melee attacks after dodging/parrying. Depending on boss swing speed and obviously a lot of rng, the number of rune strikes will vary a lot. Check the Freya-parse (35:63) versus Algalon (60:26). Most of my melee hits on Algalon were probably while not tanking. Boss swing speed has a lot to say for the ratio.

Rune Strike (not dodgeable / parryable) benefits from parry haste, assuming you just dodged/parried, because it's tied on your melee swings.

Death Knights do not have any next-melee abilities, so parry-haste doesn't affect anything but Rune Strike / white hits. Most of our other abilities (Blood Strike / Heart Strike / Plague Strike / Obliterate / Scourge Strike / Frost Strike) can be parried. However, they only act as one attack.

Scourge Strike is being changed to melee hit -> apply magical damage (much like SoV), but from what I've read they have made sure that the magical part cannot be parried on its own.

I don't have any data on Necrosis, so I don't know if it acts like SoV or not.

I *think* Blood-caked Strike can be parried, but I don't have any data on that either. It's not typically picked up in tank-specs, as far as I know, but I'm very rusty on anything that isn't blood.

Icy Touch and Howling blast cannot be parried.
Last edited by amh on Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby amh » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:36 pm

Also worth a read: Threat stats equivalence points for death knight tanks by Gravity over at deathknight.info.

Making a training-dummy log with a 182 hit / 5 expertise-set with maxed out Necrosis and Blood-Caked Strike now, so I'll get back to you in a little bit.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby amh » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:02 pm

Necrosis only procs on successfull melee hits (obviously:), the application of Necrosis cannot be dodged / parried.

Blook-Caked Strike can be dodged / parried.

Forgot to mention, but both abitlies obviously gain benefits from parry-haste. Reached the upload-limit in this post, stuffing the last picture in the above post.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby amh » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:31 pm

Rune Strike also procs Necrosis / BSC, which I didn't know.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Dragondin » Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:22 am

my own feral druid is only 65, but this post on ThinkTank is maybe helpful for you.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:04 am

Ok, so for DK's:
Melee attacks get converted to Rune Strike after a dodge/parry. This will vary a lot from boss to boss, but for a given boss_attack_speed the average percentage should be:
player_swing_speed*(player_dodge+player_parry)/boss_attack_speed


(check: in player_swing_speed seconds, you receive 1/boss_attack_speed attacks, with a (player_dodge+player_parry) % chance of triggering rune strike)

Since rune strike cannot be parried, that reduces the number of auto-attacks that cause parry-haste to:
Code: Select all
(1-player_swing_speed*(player_dodge+player_parry)/boss_attack_speed)


which would give a "parry-haste-effected" term for player_attack_speed of
Code: Select all
(1-pss*(Pd+Pp)/bas)/pss = 1/pss-(Pd+Pp)/bas


However, both melee and Rune Strikes trigger Blood-Caked Strike, which can be parried. So we get an additional 0.3*(1-boss_avoid)/pss term as well.

so player_attack_speed should look like:

Code: Select all
1/pas = 1/pss - (Pd+Pp)/bas + 0.3*(1-boss_avoid)/pss + A

What's left is to define A, which is the static (not affected by parry-haste) component. For that we need to know how many of your other parry-able attacks (according to amh, Blood Strike / Heart Strike / Plague Strike / Obliterate / Scourge Strike / Frost Strike) a tanking DK would make "per second."
Last edited by theckhd on Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:16 am

Dragondin wrote:my own feral druid is only 65, but this post on ThinkTank is maybe helpful for you.

Thanks. From that link:

ThinkTank wrote:In 240 seconds you have 160 GCDs and 40 cycles of 6 second mangle/x/x/FF. Of those, 3 can be parried. You will also normally have 100 mauls.

So in 240 seconds you have 120 parryable normal attacks (1/4 are faerie fire) and 100 mauls. Let's assume you're soft-capped for expertise, meaning you have 26 expertise. This means that you will have 8.5% parries overall, or 18.7 total parries in the fight.

I think he's made an oversight, or else I'm missing something. Following his logic:

You have 160 GCDs. 1/4 are Faerie Fire (really? you guys chain-cast FF for threat?), which leaves 120 GCDs for specials that can be parried. Presumably none of those get any benefit from parry-haste.

He also cites 100 mauls, but doesn't seem to mention auto-attacks. I know maul substitutes for auto-attacks, but since both can be parried, how many mauls you have is irrelevant for parry-haste calculations. What matters is how many auto-attack swings (maul or regular) you make per second, which is just 1/player_swing_speed, like a warrior.

If my memory isn't too faulty, bears have a fixed base swing timer (as in weapon-independent), but I don't remember what it is. Does anyone has a ballpark estimate of the base swing timer, as well as a realistic estimate of the swing timer after haste buffs are taken into account?

Given that, and assuming I'm right on the maul/auto-attack issue, the druid equation should look like:
Code: Select all
1/pas = 1/pss + 120/240 = 1/pss + 0.5.
Last edited by theckhd on Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:26 am

I probably should have set up the problem more clearly than I did, looking back at my two posts. Here's the summary of what I need:

Each class generates a different amount of parry-able attacks per second. We call this the "player attack speed" or pas for short. These can be based on the player's swing speed pss, or independent (i.e. GCD-limited).

Thus, pas has the generic form:
1/pas = B / pss + A
where the first term represents abilities that scale with parry haste, and the second term represents abilities that don't.

As a simple example, a melee auto-attack scales with parry-haste. When we parry, our next attack comes sooner, which also increases the rate at which we generate parry-able attacks.

Hammer of the Righteous, on the other hand, doesn't scale with parry haste. It doesn't matter how much you parry, you can't cast your next HotR until the 6-second cooldown is up.

So for a very simple example with just melee attacks and HotR, we'd get a player attack speed of:

1/pas = 1 / pss + 1/6

As you add more abilities, it gets more complicated. For example, each successful auto-attack and HotR generates a Holy Vengeance application, which itself can be parried. But since the initial attack has to be successful, you have to account for avoidance. Instead of generating 1 HV application every 6 seconds due to HotR, we generate (1-boss_avoid) every 6 seconds, giving us a (1-boss_avoid)/6 term in the equation. We get a similar term for HV applications from melee attacks. We can combine terms to get the result I use in the simulation:
1/pas = (2-boss_avoid)/pss + (2-boss_avoid)/6

What I'm looking for is the factors B and A that represent other classes accurately. From the model I constructed based on Amh's testing, for a DK we'd have
B_dk = 1 - pss*(Pp+Pd)/bas + 0.3*(1-boss_avoid)

And if the druid model is correct, then
B_druid = 1
A_druid = 0.5
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby amh » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:35 am

If I'm understanding you correctly, what you need to know about death knights is the rotation for each spec, or rather how much downtime each spec has? I think the ice I'm standing on is getting thinner by the minute, so I'll try to poke Splug into taking a look at this.

Also, you can disregard Blood-Caked Strike. Doesn't look like anyone uses it for tanking these days.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:00 am

amh wrote:If I'm understanding you correctly, what you need to know about death knights is the rotation for each spec, or rather how much downtime each spec has? I think the ice I'm standing on is getting thinner by the minute, so I'll try to poke Splug into taking a look at this.

Also, you can disregard Blood-Caked Strike. Doesn't look like anyone uses it for tanking these days.

Yeah, basically I'd need a rotation for each spec (including 2H and DW if applicable, since I assume each is slightly different), or a downtime estimate. As long as Rune Strike and BCS are the only two that are tied to auto-attacks, and all specs use them equally, the first term is correct. If that's a bad assumption, I'd like to know that as well.

If BCS isn't taken in tanking specs any more, I can just drop the third term.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby amh » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:07 am

theckhd wrote:As long as Rune Strike and BCS are the only two that are tied to auto-attacks, and all specs use them equally, the first term is correct. If that's a bad assumption, I'd like to know that as well.


You're dead on. Rune Strike is the single best way to spend runic power for all specs, and you either macro it to most of your abilities, or your threat isn't viable. That goes for all specs. Just don't forget auto-attack/rune strike->Necrosis, though I guess it doesn't matter for your expertise-calculation.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby semp » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:47 am

Yes in a pure TPS cycle bear tanks keep FF on CD. And maul should replace 99%+ of every autoattack when boss tanking without rage starvation. If you are equally geared as a bear tank to your DPS you can go with a full DPS cycle and drop FF. I love expertise for threat and DPS while tanking. I was sitting at 36 before my picking up a few upgrades and im back to 26 expertise. If someone could put out some real numbers on expertise and its value towards mitigation that would be quite helpful.
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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Splug » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:59 am

Consider me poked. This is going to be a short post. The next one is probably not.

I know of about five different rotations that are prevalent in tanking. Necrosis will only appear in unholy specs, or partially in blood specs. It cannot be parried. Blood-caked blade is too deep in unholy to be used by anything other than unholy, and there it is used infrequently (though I still take it occasionally; it's still efficient threat-per-point).

EDIT: Ok, I thought of two more.

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Re: [DK & Druid - Tank] Looking for input re:Theorycrafting

Postby Splug » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:34 am

Blood - no glyph of disease:

IT->PS->BS->BS->DS->__
__->DS->BS->BS->BS->BS

__ will be a deathcoil if RP allows, or empty if not. Either way it cannot be parried.
9 parryable attacks per 20 seconds.

Blood - glyph of disease:
First 20 sec:
IT->PS->BS->BS->DS->__
__->DS->BS->BS->BS->Pest

Every 20 sec after:
BS->BS->BS->BS->DS->__
__->DS->BS->BS->BS->Pest

__ will be a deathcoil if RP allows, or empty if not. Either way it cannot be parried.
8 parryable attacks in the first 20 seconds, 9 parryable attacks every 20 seconds after.

Frost - no glyph of howling blast, no epidemic
IT->PS->Oblit->BS->BS->__
IT->PS->Oblit->__->Oblit->__

__ will be a frost strike if RP allows, or empty if not. Frost strike can be parried. You will generate 130 RP per 20 seconds (unless glyph of IT is used, in which case it's 150 RP), and burn 20 per rune strike. Frost strike costs 40 RP (unless glyph of Frost Strike is used, in which case it's 32 RP). You already have a calculation for expected rune strike frequency, assume any remaining is burned off during the FS slots.

7+N parryable attacks per 20 seconds, where N is the number of frost strikes.

Frost - no glyph of howling blast, epidemic (Arguably more common)
IT->PS->Oblit->BS->BS->__
__->Oblit->Oblit->__->Oblit->__

__ will be a frost strike if RP allows, or empty if not. Frost strike can be parried. You will generate 125 RP per 20 seconds(unless glyph of IT is used, in which case it's 150 RP), and burn 20 per rune strike. Frost strike costs 40 RP (unless glyph of Frost Strike is used, in which case it's 32 RP). You already have a calculation for expected rune strike frequency, assume any remaining is burned off during the FS slots.

7+N parryable attacks per 20 seconds, where N is the number of frost strikes.

Frost - glyph of howling blast
This is a priority-based mess with no set rotation. You can TRY to force a set rotation and soak a threat hit, but played correctly it's all free-form and varies regularly.
*Is frost fever down? Howling Blast
*Is this my last FU pair, howling blast is ready, and frost fever will fall before the next FU pair refreshes? Howling Blast
*Do I have >60 RP and Killing Machine? Frost Strike
*Do I have Freezing Fog (rime proc)? Howling Blast
*Is this my last FU pair, and frost fever will fall before the next FU pair refreshes, but howling blast is NOT ready? Blood Strike (twice), or DO NOTHING if B's are not ready
*Is blade barrier down, and I have two death runes? Obliterate
*Do I have >60 RP? Frost Strike
*Is blade barrier down, and I have blood runes? Blood Strike (twice)
*Do I have a FU rune pair? Obliterate
*Do I have a BB rune pair? Blood Strike (twice)

Killing Machine is triggered by main-hand autoattacks at 1 PPM per talent invested (up to a maximum of 5). Freezing Fog is triggered by Obliterate, with a 5% chance per talent point invested in Rime (maximum of 3). Both hits from a dual-wield obliterate have a chance to trigger Freezing Fog.

If you try to simplify those rules down into a "rotation," you'll end up with something very similar to:
HB->Oblit->__->BS->BS->__
Oblit->__->HB->__->Oblit->__
Oblit->__->HB->__->BS->BS
Oblit->__->Oblit->__->Oblit->__

You have 190 RP per 40 second "cycle." The empty slots can be either frost strikes or howling blasts, or nothing. If it is a howling blast, it does NOT generate runic power, but it will push the next howling blast later and replace it with an obliterate. Ignoring Freezing Fog, there are probably 11+N parryable attacks per 40 seconds, where N is the number of frost strikes.

Unholy - Glyph of Scourge Strike
PS->IT->SS->BS->BS->__
__->SS->SS->__->SS->__
__->SS->SS->BS->BS->__
PS->IT->SS->__->SS->__
__->SS->SS->BS->BS->__
__->SS->SS->__->SS->__

__ will be a deathcoil if RP allows, or empty if not. Either way it cannot be parried.
21 parryable attacks per 60 seconds.

Unholy - Glyph of Disease
PS->IT->SS->BS->Pest->__
__->SS->SS->__->SS->__

__ will be a deathcoil if RP allows, or empty if not. Either way it cannot be parried.
6 parryable attacks per 20 seconds.

Unholy - Neither Glyph of Disease nor Glyph of Scourge Strike
PS->IT->SS->BS->BS->__
__->SS->SS->__->SS->__

__ will be a deathcoil if RP allows, or empty if not. Either way it cannot be parried.
7 parryable attacks per 20 seconds.

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