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[Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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[Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby kingharbromm » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:42 pm

Hey everyone,

Can someone please help?

I was on the PTR with my trusty ol' premade prot paladin. I was wearing full T8 PvE gear gemmed for stamina in the 5/59/7 spec. He just straight up kited me to death. I went to the WoWWiki "How to beat a..." page & it said I should outlast him. I should keep him in range & bang on him when I can but mostly heal through his damage.

It didn't work.

I'll admit that I'm FAR from the best pvProtadin out there, but I think I do a decent job. After all, there's really not much to a paladin. choose your seals, blessings, & you get right to it. What's the magic word to beat a frost mage? I feel like he just straight up owned me. Not feel like, he did.

Thanks for the help!
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby Lumidar » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:21 pm

save HoJ for after he blinks. cleanse yourself pretty much all the time when he's not in melee range. use Avenger's shield when he runs away and starts casting (to silence him).

if done right you have a good chance to win... otherwise it's a kite fest.

also keep sacred shield up unless he's the kind of person that spellsteals everything then you dont want him to have it.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby Candiru » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:21 am

Spec pursuit of Justice.

Seriously, without it, how do you think you are going to catch him?
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby kingharbromm » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:15 am

[rant] Amazing that I got better advice from the guy with 2 posts than the guy with 1771 posts. [/rant]

I found a website that had some really good Protection Paladin PvP tips. They had a great spec suggestion that's something like 11/53/7. It includes Aura Mastery & Benedictions (rather than deflection). I think the main idea for the build was that a protection paladin can easily handle most melee fights without all of that extra avoidance. So, focus more on mana management & spellcaster defense.

It got me things like Glyph of Hammer of Justice, Glyph of Shield of Righteousness, Glyph of Hammer of Righteousness, taking Improved Hammer of Justice in the protection tree. Mainly, a more PvP focused build. I'm still wearing full PvE gear (though I'm considering swapping out my trinkets).

My success was MUCH better after the rebuild. With Aura Mastery, I can't be interrupted. It's great for using Exorcism in battle. My mana wasn't as low all the time giving me more to cleanse all of the crap the mage put on me. With more hammer stuns, I was able to keep the mage in range for much longer. And when they got low, having free Hamer of Justice was very helpful.

The amazing non-premade mage that was on the PTR that spawned this thread wasn't avaiable for more dueling after I did my research. I can say that after I went on & rebuilt, I went on a 12 win streak in duels. After that, I logged into live & played my main some. The spec is very powerful & I recommend it for anyone looking to PvP as a protection paladin.

Search Google for the spec. It's on a blog that I can't remember the name of (I'm not on my home computer). It's a 3 part series all on Protection Paladin PvP.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby majiben » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:43 pm

Seems like you're using a healing prot spec, no? That should have been specified at the start. The adivice for the two in pvp is very different.

Also why would you get HotR glyphed for PvP? You're rarely going to have them that bunched up in groups of 3 much the less 4. You should consider the glyphs for SoL, SoW, Cleansing, DP, HoSalv, or FoL over it.

Also I can't figure out why you would go deeper than 52 points in prot if you were not concerned with melee.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby kingharbromm » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:07 pm

[rant again]

Hmm. Where to start...

#1, I didn't start with deciding to do a holy / prot build. I even posted that I was starting with a 5/59/7 build. That's the standard PvE tanking spec. Maybe you missed that, though.

#2, I misquoted my glyphs. I apologize for that. I actually meant to say Glyphs of SoR, HoJ, & Hammer of Wrath. Thanks for catching that.

#3, Those glyphs you listed are all for a holy paladin. I'm like 99% sure that 11 points in holy doesn't mean you're a healer. I could be wrong. I don't see a lot of healers running around with 11/53/7, though.

#4, Who said I wasn't concerned with melee? I think what I said was a prot paladin didn't need so much avoidance because he can handle those fights without it. Maybe you missed that, though.

In fact, did you even read any of my posts?

0-2 on "veteran" posters. 1-1 on the new guy actually trying to help me out.

[/rant]
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby Invisusira » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:31 pm

Frost mages are like any other caster (sans disc priest, which can f right off) - get in close and burn them down (at least, burn as much as you can as prot). The "outlast" strategy is something I only use for something like a holy paladin. Particularly in world PvP, trying to outlast someone is just an invitation for them to call in some buddies.

As noted above, PoJ and using HoJ AFTER the blink are the way to do it. Get in their face and panic'd, try and stay behind them so they have to keep turning. As a PvE prot build paladin, I rarely heal and almost never lose unless the horde start outnumbering me. If you don't have a self-cleanse macro, MAKE ONE. Cleanse is an amazing ability, particularly in PvP. This is one of the most important buttons in your arsenal, it's bound to my 2 key.
Code: Select all
#showtooltip Cleanse
/cast [target=Invisusira] Cleanse

Another thing that people tend to forget is to use Seal of Justice. Against casters in particular, it's annoying as shit and far more effective than SoV.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby kingharbromm » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:03 pm

Doggonit! I toyed with the idea of Seal of Justice then laughed it off in my head because I was thinking no one used it. Now I wish I had given it a shot. The next time I'm on the PTR I certainly will give it a go.

Using the build I'm using, I don't have enough points of PoJ. I wish I did, mainly because it's pretty neat to be able to run faster than normal run speed. I will toy around with some builds and see how it goes.

I really wish that awesome frost mage had come back on so I could try out this new build I found on him so I'd have something meaningful to report. All I got to test on was mainly new guys trying out the premades for the first time. :(

Thanks for the advice, Insivusira. I'll see how it goes.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby majiben » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:31 pm

You said you preferred being able to cast without interruption over being able to run faster and preferred to outlast the mage. That sounds like a healing prot rather than control prot. And the glyphs for HoSalv and DP are not healing glyphs. And 5/59/7 build is not the standard tanking spec by any stretch of the imagination and thus wouldn't tell me you were planning to play control.

And you certainly implied you didn't care about melee defense with this:
kingharbromm wrote:It includes Aura Mastery & Benedictions (rather than deflection). I think the main idea for the build was that a protection paladin can easily handle most melee fights without all of that extra avoidance. So, focus more on mana management & spellcaster defense.
Last edited by majiben on Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby Invisusira » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:34 pm

If you've got those 5 holy points in imp seals, move them over to the ret side. You get more threat out of Conviction + Crusade than you do imp seals.

I also notice that your character is 71. Did you get a premade on PTR or do you have another character? If you're unfamiliar with being 80, that can make a difference. At 71, you don't have shield slam - which is the vast majority of your PvP killing power.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby kingharbromm » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:38 am

Yeah, my main is only 71. I got the premade on the PTR to try out some level 80 dueling. The newest thing for me was Sacred Shield. Shield of the Righteous wasn't that new because I was so used to Shield Slam on my warrior.

Right now I don't have a lot of strategy. I run around with what I hope are the best Blessing / Seal combination for who I'm fighting & use everythying that's not on CD. Most of the time against casters that's been BoW / SoV. I haven't been back on recently to try out SoJ, though. Versus melee it's usually been BoS / SoL orSoV.


My holy tree is basically used to get Improved Auras. I like being able to go into Con Aura vs a warrior & be immune to most of his stun locking. Same for mages & shamans that like to silence.

I'll look into your build, though. I'll give it a try if I can get back to the PTR before it closes. how do you keep from getting interrupted in PvP without Improved Auras?
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby Invisusira » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:00 am

kingharbromm wrote:how do you keep from getting interrupted in PvP without Improved Auras?

What is there to interrupt?
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby Corpsicle » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:55 am

The point of being able to cast in pvp, for a prot spec, is to cast heals. I can't think of anything else you could cast that would be worth the mana. Exorcism maybe if someone is at range, but if you are in melee range there are other, better options. If you get to the point where you need to cast a heal to heal up, you are probably better off getting very low, proccing ardent defender (you won't see this proc in duels I believe, but it is amazing in real pvp), bubbling and then healing to full safely in the bubble. I'd actually skip Aura mastery in favor of a Crusade/Pursuit of Justice build, if you want to focus on a melee/control sort of Prot style. Also, I'd pick up the highest block value pieces you can and build a set focused on high block value, high strength while maintaining decent defense to keep strong AD procs.

There is a prot healing build that you may not be familliar with that is extremely strong in pvp right now. From what you were talking about, it seems that may be the build you are looking at. Majiben is right, the advice for a prot healing build is extremely different for a prot DPS build. You'll know the build because it takes talents like illumination in holy and skips some of the main prot talents you need in pve - even though it does spend 52+ points in the prot tree. This build relies on using a high spellpower/stamina Holy set along with holy glyphs and is getting nerfed in the next minor content patch. If you are interested in control pvp as protection (prot spec and prot gear), then the prot healing pvp spec is not for you.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby Candiru » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:06 am

Pursuit of Justice is the best PvP talent you can take, seriously. If the mage has run speed on boots (which he probably will) and simply runs away from you, frostbolt, runs away, frostbolt you will never catch him and you will slowly die.

With PoJ you can at least close the distance.

Hell, he could just run away and jump/turn icelance turn/run in a big circle around the duel area, and without PoJ all you could do is Avenger's shield every 30s to slow him down (which he will simply blink away from) leaving you Oom and dead in no time at all.

I don't see why you took offence at me suggesting you take it.
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Re: [Prot-PvP] Versus Frost Mage...

Postby Baelor » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:34 am

kingharbromm wrote:[rant]
snip
[/rant]

kingharbroom, while I understand that you are trying to tailor further replies to your specific questions, there is no need to sling rants and insults at so-called "veteran" posters for offering points of interest that you may or may not agree with.

Granted, Candiru's off-the-cuff remark was not a catch-all solution nor was it the most polite, but Pursuit of Justice does address the problem you stated:

He just straight up kited me to death


And while Majiben did not offer you solutions that were in line with your line of thinking regarding how to Prot PvP, his suggestions are not incorrect, as noted in later posts.

In short, please be respectful of fellow posters on this board, no matter what their post count is.
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