[DK Tank] Blood or frost

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Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby TzumaNew » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:26 am

Kiorken wrote:I would have to say its pretty equal, and there is math in favor for both Blood tank and Frost tank, if you don't believe me, just hit up deathknight.info, and take a look at thier various tanking theorycraft. At this point, its a game of what you prefer, and what your raid would feel comfortable with. A lot of guilds out there are still antsy to see DK's tank, and may have thier opinions on how you should spec.
From spec to spec, I agree the sta increase is average by going blood. However, if you take gear into consideration, it can make things much more interesting. As soon as I can figure out what the optimum tanking DW weapons are, its easier to see the entire impact on threat and EH.

Everything you said, in theory, is correct. Blood vs DW Frost in spec alone is a preference. But I am waiting to see anyone prove that the big picture (including gear) doesnt show a discrepency. Itd be nice if there wasnt one, though. Id prefer to go back to Frost (and DW) if it made sense.
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Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Kelaan » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:09 am

How does Frost AOE frontload? We have a Frost DK who is trying to certify, and our DPS were very frustrated by his perceived poor AOE threat. He's going IT-PS-Pest-HB-..., which seems to be the Tankspot recommended thing for AOE threat, but its damage seemed very un-front-loaded. Do we just need to wait until HB hits to go in, or something? How much time to DPS need to wait before starting? I'd see things running all over from LB's, hurricanes, blizzards, whirlwinds ... granted, our guild is spoiled by having paladin tanks' frontloaded threat on nearly every pull, so there's a degree of patience the DPS need, but ... i'm not sure how to tell what that is when I evaluate this person. They clearly have been doing research, but in execution it seems like theory and reality aren't meshing, so I am trying to understand why.

Also, do you pre-place a D&D, or drop it once everything's in place? (I am thinking construct wing trash, specifically - clearly, spiders that grip you are different ;))
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Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:34 am

I've heard people recommending an opening rotation of DnD -> HB -> Bloodboil, then going into a regular rotation on the second set of runes. Glyph of Howling Blast would make this more powerful. Can also spec Deathchill and use it for a crit HB on the pull.
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Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby andx » Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:40 am

Basically you want to do Howling Blast then blood boil blood boil, this gets a great deal of AOE threat because Howling Blast, glyphed, will inflict a disease on the mobs effected by the attack. blood boil then does a great deal of damage/threat by utilizing the disease to increase damage. After that AoE build up just dump and go into a normal rotation.
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Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Gracerath » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:08 am

My tank spec is frost. If I'm going for AE threat (most heroics) I do DnD / HB(glyphed) / BB and start a rotation after. If mobs are going to live long enough, I'll pestilence around blood plauge otherwise I'll just drop more BB's. My AE threat is pretty good.

I've considered trying out blood tanking just to mix it up. I do feel squishier than I have in the past. I guess it really just depends on what you do the most. Any time I tank, its either for the daily heroic or somewhere that we need some sort of AE tanking (Thorim's arena, for example). I prefer having superior AE threat for those instances rather than the extra health and other blood goodies.
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Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Viycktor » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:25 pm

Kelaan wrote:How does Frost AOE frontload? We have a Frost DK who is trying to certify, and our DPS were very frustrated by his perceived poor AOE threat. He's going IT-PS-Pest-HB-..., which seems to be the Tankspot recommended thing for AOE threat, but its damage seemed very un-front-loaded. Do we just need to wait until HB hits to go in, or something? How much time to DPS need to wait before starting? I'd see things running all over from LB's, hurricanes, blizzards, whirlwinds ... granted, our guild is spoiled by having paladin tanks' frontloaded threat on nearly every pull, so there's a degree of patience the DPS need, but ... i'm not sure how to tell what that is when I evaluate this person. They clearly have been doing research, but in execution it seems like theory and reality aren't meshing, so I am trying to understand why.

Also, do you pre-place a D&D, or drop it once everything's in place? (I am thinking construct wing trash, specifically - clearly, spiders that grip you are different ;))

With that rotation, you want to wait until HB hits (if the IT is tossed out while running in, you only need to give him 3 seconds until the HB hits... which is what you give a Prot Paladin to lay down a consecrate and get off one HotR). It's like opening up on a Prot paladin before consecrate has had time to tick (though Prot Paladins have the advantage of AS). 3 GCDs in, the non-main targets have only had AT BEST one tick of FF and BP. HB is the first REAL AoE threat those mobs are seeing.

I've yet to have any threat problems, and what I do for trash pack is:
Place D&D while running in, IT->PS->Pest->BloodTap/BB->(maybe a small delay here depending on the delay between D&D and geting into melee) HB->BB and then do whatever is necessary... tossing out rune strikes as they come up and popping CDs as needed, going into a regular rotation refreshing diseases, using BB in place of BS and the Oblits from Death runes, and HB (DS if HB is on CD) in place of the normal Oblits. Sometimes that first BB is really UA if I'm afraid of taking too much damage.

The natural alternative is to IT->PS->Pest->HB->BB like you said. But it seems that with really good AoE dps, that for threat after the first 10 seconds, those initial runes spent on D&D are worth it for threat (though I haven't quantified this - so I may have just upgraded my gear or something).

What D&D REALLY does is give the DK some threat before he's in melee range. This is critical for over-excited dps and healers as without D&D, he has 0 threat on the non initial target mobs, which means someone simply *buffing* as he runs in is enough to pull off of him. I'm sure you've seen the same thing happen if AS misses... now imagine if you could only taunt one mob at a time...

The real problem (which never happens on my Paladin) is when the dps pull before you even open up and they split the pack. I've had it happen where one or two melee get pulled to a hunter or mage, and they a) got pulled out of range of my initial D&D b) never got my diseases and c) were out of range of my BB/HB... or I had to HB the runners to get them back, and then OTHER AoE dps pulled the guys that had originally had because I had to spend early runes on runners. This is a time for Empowered Rune Weapon and taunts, but it's much more hectic.

Depending on if you're chain pulling Heroics or more slowly doing raid trash, Empowered rune weapon with HB and BB at the beginning of an AoE pull is pretty huge for threat. Also recommend liberal use of Blood Tap.
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