Remove Advertisements

[DK Tank] Blood or frost

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

[DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Asoka » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:21 am

So i've recently leveled a dk which should be 80 by the weekend, and as every1 knows with ToC and all the emblem changes gearing a new alt/main is laughable.
So far in Wow ive tanked with both my warrior and pally into Ulduar, but lately ive taken a step back and just decided to grind hc's with friends and maybe the occasional naxx/ulduar 10. Nothing too perplexing.

on one side im thinking go frost, snap aoe threat is great for 5 mans, however i do love the dps done by blood (i mean a tank with nice dps is the point of a dk right) and going as blood for my dps spec aswell means a nice transition when i dual spec.

Im just wondering how weak bloods aoe is, i know the HP difference is quite small now since 3.2 and we dont get the awsome looking 40k+ hp blood tanks runnin around.

So thoughts?
Also correct me if im wrong but the dps/threat difference between frost DW and 2 hander is pretty much nothing right?
Asoka
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:27 am

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby amh » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:32 am

Blood snap aoe is obviously very lacking, but tps is not half bad once you've got your diseases up and running. Blood Tap helps a lot on the initial pull (DnD-IT-PS-pest-tap->BB). Death Rune Mastery is a must to keep the Blood Boils coming.

Can't really comment on frost, haven't tried it since before they nerfed HB. Blood dps is a lot of fun these days, I'm more or less on par with our DW frost mains (as opposed to my off-spec).
I used to play a paladin.
User avatar
amh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 6:25 am
Location: Oh hi

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby TzumaNew » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:25 pm

I currently like Blood more than Frost as my main tank spec, simply due to the fact that blood has higher EH, and more situational/oh shit cooldowns available. I also like it more for soloing 80dungeons. YMMV.

The only time I have real threat concerns is when there is random add spawnage during a fight, or consecutive trash pulls (H.CoS for instance). In both situations my runecooldown may be off from what I need (and ERW is down).

The deflection or triumph tanking sigil goes a long way towards my TPS in long fights. Rune strike causing a buff that induces more runestrikes is simply amazing.
TzumaNew
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:54 am

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby andx » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:42 pm

i just dingged 80 on my DK grabbed all the tank gear needed to hit the cap, gemmed and chanted and specced blood. I love it, its so different from tanking as a pally, its more active i feel. I dont have crazy AoE threat, but my single target is really nice. Its hard to compare a Pally in uld hard mode/ TOC gear to a fresh 80 dk tank. My DK already has 30k unbuffed hp, which is insane. I have 2 peices of heroic loot and thats it, no badge gear yet. I'm still helping my GF get to 80 on her hunter so still running reg instances. I speced frost briefly to tank H AN but i didn't find it as enjoyable. As far as DPS, I Will be dual speccing this after i get geared out to tank. My guild on that server is going to rush me through heroics/naxx/uld as they need another tank to run 2 uld groups fun. I like this character although i think its OP in dps/leveling soloing quests for [5] people was kinda cool but it was too easy.


IMO:

Blood 2h tank> Frost dw tank

Having a DW tank could lead to quite a bit of extra strikes from the boss due to parry haste. Although the extra skills in frost help a lot, but Blood has such a crazy high EH

Speculation:

Blood 2h dps > Frost dw DPS

I only say this because DK skills damage is based on weapon damage so inorder to balance that out you will need two really slow high top end weapons, DW frost sounds more fun tho.


-Andx
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
andx
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:01 am

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:50 pm

andx wrote:Blood 2h tank> Frost dw tank

Having a DW tank could lead to quite a bit of extra strikes from the boss due to parry haste. Although the extra skills in frost help a lot, but Blood has such a crazy high EH

It is my understanding that the difference in parry-haste between 2H and DW is, according to theorycraft done recently, entirely unnoticable once you reach 21 Expertise.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6660
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby TzumaNew » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:27 am

KysenMurrin wrote:
andx wrote:Blood 2h tank> Frost dw tank

Having a DW tank could lead to quite a bit of extra strikes from the boss due to parry haste. Although the extra skills in frost help a lot, but Blood has such a crazy high EH

It is my understanding that the difference in parry-haste between 2H and DW is, according to theorycraft done recently, entirely unnoticable once you reach 21 Expertise.
And especially since any DW is aiming for slow/slow on top of that.

The main problem with DW Frost tanking is staying about the defense cap at the early/medium gear levels. No Stoneskin Gargoyle, so youre going to have to rely on tanking 1handers (or hurting your EH with def trinkets). Very few slow tank 1handers (Broken Promise). And the fast ones like to not have any defense on them (see peacemaker from 5man H.ToC). Anything fast is going to lead to a drop in overall dmg/threat.

Until they add in a 1h stoneskin gargoyle runeforge, or rework some of the itemization (I dont necessarily see either happening), DW Frost tanking is fine, if you can swing the gear balance (or are just a masochist).
TzumaNew
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:54 am

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:37 am

I think I'm a masochist, because I'm pretty determined to do it. :P
I'm going with slow dps MH/tanking OH for my weapons, which will not be as good for extra mitigation but is supposed to be decent for making up lost threat from the fast tank weapons.* Have to hit 80 first to see the result (76 atm)...

Of course if you're worried about threat and the def cap, 2H Frost is still just as viable as before.


*Of course, a DK DWing dps weapons probably works too, it'd be comparable to 2H tanking before Stoneskin was added.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6660
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Kiorken » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:30 am

I know I'm a masochist, but the thing is, the one hand enchants somewhat scale better with higher end gear. Once you reach that defense cap, you want to start stacking stam, and then make sure you back up with the other subdefense ratings, like dodge, and parry. Swordbreaking is beautiful, a strait 2 percent parry chance for each weapon. Dual defense weapons arent bad either.

Early thought was that dualwielding was bad because of boss parry gibbing, but with enough expertise, (Lord knows that tanking gear has way too much, my prot pally had like 39, which is rediculous), and because of THREAT OF THASSARIAN, you do STRIKES with both weapons, and counts that way too. Parry gibbing is not nearly an issue now, and when you are in Progression, and at the point where you might actually worry about parry gibbing the boss, you have enough expertise to get around it. If you don't, there is always the bracer enchant.

IMO:

2 Tanking one handers with 4parry> 1 DPS 2 hander (you have to compete with other dks, ret, warriors especially fury for 2, and sometimes huntards) with stoneskin.

Frost has beautiful DPS also, and good AOE TPS when you get the hang of it. Also, no easy peasy 969 rotation to macro or spam, so its far more reactive. Most fun I've had in a long time. Thats why I'm not playing my wife's dk anymore, and making my own lol

Outside of OB, most of your attacks are magic also, so even if you spec dw frost dps, you don't have to stack Arpen, you play much like a dw Ret
Image

Playing very casually....for now.
User avatar
Kiorken
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:43 am
Location: Lackland AFB

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby TzumaNew » Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:10 pm

Kiorken wrote:2 Tanking one handers with 4parry> 1 DPS 2 hander (you have to compete with other dks, ret, warriors especially fury for 2, and sometimes huntards) with stoneskin.

What Tanking 1handers are you going to use in that setup? How much EH are you going to lose without stoneskin and most likely several enchants/gems/trinkets to make up the lack of defense?

Im just curious because when I did the math it definitely wasn't worth it, especially when EH seems to be king in current content. Maybe I use using the wrong weapons.
TzumaNew
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:54 am

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby amh » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:52 pm

While 4% avoidance is beautiful, it's a massive EH-loss. Not only do you need to compensate for the defense-loss (in my case about 15 defense skill), but you lose 2% stamina. Right now that would be really hard to justify, and to be honest, I don't see it changing any time soon.

I'll concede that you "only" lose 2% stamina when you show me a gear-set without a single defense-gem and at the very least 536 defense :)

Edit: Oh, and gimping your Rune Strike is a sin.
I used to play a paladin.
User avatar
amh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 6:25 am
Location: Oh hi

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Worldie » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:40 pm

amh wrote:
Edit: Oh, and gimping your Rune Strike is a sin.

You do Rune Strike much more often, though.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13117
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby amh » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:52 pm

I would have to try it out to comment, but I imagine rp starvation becoming a big issue, especially versus fast hitters. I very rarely death coil as blood - most of my rp is consumed on Rune Strike anyway (without it piling up at 100).

How good is a rune strike from a 2.6speed weapon compared to a frost strike with both?
I used to play a paladin.
User avatar
amh
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3012
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 6:25 am
Location: Oh hi

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Viycktor » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:25 pm

I'm currently a 2-H frost tank with 2-H Unholy/Obliterate off-spec.

I'm thinking about switching to 2-H Blood tank, and DW Frost dps once I get another awesome 1-hander (Or may be not... I got one blue ilvl200 and the mace out of H 5-man ToC).

Using Rawr (and I think I have it setup right) I get FAR superior dps with my proposed DW frost setup (for some reason) so I'm planning on testing it out the next time I get to dps with him.

For tanking, I feel DAMN squishy as frost. I know I'm not supposed to, but unbreakable armor got nerfed with the armor nerf, and the IBF duration extension talent got essentially nerfed with the IBF CD nerf. So Frost tanks (at least 2-H frost tanks) got nerfed harder than the other specs. I wind up treating IBF as an 'oh shit' CD because of the CD change (it's once a boss and every 2-3 trash packs as opposed to the old twice a boss, once every trash pack mentality) and take a ton more damage overall.

H ToC has been most telling. For fights where one of the guys is the Shaman or the Warrior, we're fine. But when I get 3 dps, the spike damage I can sometimes take is way too high. It's fine for most other heroics, but I feel that I could be better off tanking in blood. Again, I'll have to try it and find out.
Viycktor
 
Posts: 530
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:20 pm

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Fenris » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:45 am

Outside of OB, most of your attacks are magic also, so even if you spec dw frost dps, you don't have to stack Arpen, you play much like a dw Ret

Not so true imho.
From my experience the non-magical damage is around 50+% of the dps as frost dw (i'd say in the 60-70% range but i have no real numbers at hand now),so ArP has a good use (looking at the statweights on EJ they place it 4th behind hit/expertise/str,above everything else)


Tanking...I can say the main problem i find is single target threat.Even with 335 hit and expertise (over)capped it seems in heroics i cant push above the 4k tps mark unless i get an abominable chain of KM/Rime procs.Multi-target threat feels good,unless someone goes on "ah,stupid heroic trash,i can focus on a random mob he's not targeting" mode
ImageImage
ImageImage
User avatar
Fenris
 
Posts: 593
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:51 am
Location: Italy

Re: [DK Tank] Blood or frost

Postby Kiorken » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:10 am

You may be gimping your Rune Strike DPS, because its bugged and only works with main hand, but you get more Rune Strikes out of it. Which also helps you get around the parry gibbing, because Rune Strike is a special attack, and has only 8 percent miss, plus can't be parried. You aren't necessarily RP starved, especially on magic fights where careful use of AMS will help you keep it up, and keep you alive at the same time. It isn't a big boost of health either, just because you go blood. The only time you have to worry about RP is for Frost Strike dumps, if you're doing your rotation correctly, and builds with KM/Freezing Fog procs with HB, used in the "dump" part of the rotation as well. Unless you're going for some wierd "use RP to pull with Deathcoil" build, I don't see it as a problem.
Frost has excellent snap agro too, and when KM/Freezing Fog HB procs happen, its a beautiful, TPS pushing thing.

I would have to say its pretty equal, and there is math in favor for both Blood tank and Frost tank, if you don't believe me, just hit up deathknight.info, and take a look at thier various tanking theorycraft. At this point, its a game of what you prefer, and what your raid would feel comfortable with. A lot of guilds out there are still antsy to see DK's tank, and may have thier opinions on how you should spec.
Image

Playing very casually....for now.
User avatar
Kiorken
 
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:43 am
Location: Lackland AFB

Next

Return to Off-specs & Other Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest