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[Druid tanks] Questions

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[Druid tanks] Questions

Postby skolor » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:32 am

My co-tank is a bear, and I've recently had a few questions about how exactly bears work. He complains frequently, and I'd like a little confirmation as to how bears actually work so I know what's going on.

He's been complaining frequently about being "Rage Starved". Apparently they tried Hodir while I was away (we took most of the summer off and didn't progress much), and he was running into threat problems. According to him, the problem was he would dodge too many hits, so he wasn't taking damage and would run out of rage so that the DPS could catch him. To be specific, he mentioned he would hit a string of 3-4 avoided hits and he would just run out of rage and the DPS would catch up. He's said this would happen on any of the hard hitting bosses, so Hodir and XT are the only two I can really think of.

What particularly confuses me is that I was under the impression being rage starved like that would only happen if you significantly over geared a fight. Our guild only does 10's (individuals sometimes join 25-man pugs), so he is wearing about half 213/219 items, 2 items bought with conquest emblems now (although he said this was happening before he got those two, which probably replaced 200 items), and the rest at ilevel 200. In all, he has ~40k unbuffed health, and ~40-45% avoidance.

This all comes around to: How exactly should bears gear? What are they looking for in gear, and what aren't they? I'd appreciate any sort of "And this is how bears gear..." type of guides.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby Doogiehowser » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:04 am

Is he expertise/hit capped? That's the biggest thing I found myself when I started out tanking on my druid. Although I'm no where near you guys in terms of progression so I would assume that he probably already is close to being capped.

Do you have a link to your co-tank friend?

What is his rotation? Faerie Fire is your second highest threat move as a bear and that costs 0 rage.

Rotation
http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2009/ ... tions.html

Rage Breakdown
http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2007/ ... nking.html

Hopefully this is somewhat helpful.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby Roots » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:09 pm

I'll link or post something later, but for now, progression bears focus on what they are good at: Stam and Armor. I picked up the new 5man ring with parry just because its effectively +40 stam despite wasted itemization.

As for Hodir, it can be a difficult threat fight if dps is hitting the crits/lights like they should be. First off, if they aren't hitting all these and he's losing aggro, he needs to go back to rotation/hit/exp work (cut lacerate/swipe when he runs into dodgy strings)
Otherwise, he needs to take the first light, period. Maul+haste from the light and I've hit 18k tps easy. Bears are essentially warriors with better stats and less abilities.

for the record, i run 54k buffed with ~44% dodge, and I OT a pally with a warrior atm, which is the only reason I'm on these forums as well
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby semp » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:28 am

"In all, he has ~40k unbuffed health, and ~40-45% avoidance."

Im in full T8.5 with a few ilvl 245 pieces and dont reach 40k unbuffed and sit under 40% avoidance (like 39.something). This is with two stamina trinkets and gemming 75% stam 25% agility, so your numbers might be a bit off there, but anyway.. Hodir is a difficult encounter for a bear threat wise b/c simply we are at the bottom of the totem pole for threat generation. Rage becomes an issue in this fight only when he stops to cast flash freeze and you have to move out of melee range and lacerate stacks drop. Other than that even doding 3-4 in a row he should have a full rage bar. The only way for me to tank HM hodir is with full hunter MDs, tricks, and even salv when our locks, elesham, and mages are pulling 14k dps. Being hit capped and expertise over 20 helps a great deal as well for threat.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby skolor » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:45 am

He gets to 40k by using 2 pieces of FR gear (the 40k may be selfbuffed, I'm not quite sure). I also know that he does almost all of his gearing for +Stam, at the expense of almost everything else.

This is not a Hodir HM we're talking about having aggro ripped off on, its a Hodir regular, with the lead dps probably being in the 3.5-4k range. They wiped for 2 hours on it, then quit.

I would rather not link the armory, but if possible a "How to gear a bear" guide would be awesome.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby semp » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:15 am

wearing FR gear for normal tanking under most circumstances is bad. No threat stats, no avoidance. At most I would wear the boots for hodir, and i put them on tanking mimron for a plasma blast tanking and other than that i never use them. Gemming pure stam is not bad. One of the best qualities of bear tank is large health pool, so might as well take advantage of the health multipliers. I gem about 75% stam and 25% agility to help boost threat, dodge, and armor. for threat rotation he should be mangle on CD, FF on CD, stack lacerate to x5, and swipe to fill in those gaps and macro Maul to everything. many bear tanks arent using FF during the fight, and its a massive loss in TPS. Behind mangle its the second best threat ability.

if you are wiping to hodir for 2 hours, is it from the tank dying, dps to slow or threat capped? Hodir is tauntable when he is going into a flash freeze have your best range dps just go nuts even over agro. soon as flash freeze hits, tank can taunt and dps either gets hand of salv or use a threat dump and now the tank has a load more threat. make sure to use MD and tricks to help as well if available.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby skolor » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:51 pm

Not sure about the hodir fight, I wasn't there the only week we've tried it. Next time we run something I'll make sure to do a parse to see what his rotation is. I don't think he's using FF during combat (but I may be wrong). I've tried to convince him wearing the FR is a bad idea, is there anything I can link to that says: You're a retard, take it off. He's (apparently) been passing on some upgrades because the stamina loss would be too much.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby Nocturum » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:54 pm

I think the best answer to this is that druid tanking is dead. Blizz has sucked out stamina, dodge, armor, and agility mitigation from druid tanking in the last two patches. They replaced it all with Savage Defense...wow blizz thanks. If I sound bitter I am because drood tanking used to be so fun and so good for a raid. In full 8.5 gear and mostly 226 gear with Essence of Gossamer and Indestructible Alchemist Stone i was at a whopping 32k health unbuffed. WTF!!! 3 patches ago I was trying to get rid of health cause I didnt need close to 40K health unbuffed in full 7.5 gear and 213 gear gemmed with agility. Tell your co tank to go feral cause his gear will translate best. Until they give us back 16% more health, 25% more armor, a second interrupt, another useful tanking cooldown, and about 10% more mitigation the bear is dead...but some consolation is that we look cool with new colors...sigh.

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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby Magnusharkov » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:24 pm

Nocturum wrote:I think the best answer to this is that druid tanking is dead. Blizz has sucked out stamina, dodge, armor, and agility mitigation from druid tanking in the last two patches. They replaced it all with Savage Defense...wow blizz thanks. If I sound bitter I am because drood tanking used to be so fun and so good for a raid. In full 8.5 gear and mostly 226 gear with Essence of Gossamer and Indestructible Alchemist Stone i was at a whopping 32k health unbuffed. WTF!!! 3 patches ago I was trying to get rid of health cause I didnt need close to 40K health unbuffed in full 7.5 gear and 213 gear gemmed with agility. Tell your co tank to go feral cause his gear will translate best. Until they give us back 16% more health, 25% more armor, a second interrupt, another useful tanking cooldown, and about 10% more mitigation the bear is dead...but some consolation is that we look cool with new colors...sigh.

Keriel-Thrall


This statement is very subjective. We have a very skilled bear tank in our guild who is our go to tank on any hard hitters, he is good to heal and produces good threat, plus if more effective than our warriors on trash tanking. Bears used to be absolutely overpowered relative to shield tanks, now they are at a similar level, that does not make them useless.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby fafhrd » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:56 pm

While I'd disagree that bear tanking is dead, I do have to agree with the idea that his going feral might be a plus - feral DPS is still outstanding on many fights, and with the other 3 classes being very strong tanks in their own right, a switching a good bear to a good cat can be very helpful.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby skolor » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:23 pm

That's not really an option here. The bear is actually an alt, whose main in (was?) a rogue, and was our top DPS. Unfortunately, he was the only one willing to reroll a tank, so we need to fix him, not tell him to go back to dps (Which would be the preferred method, but we're not hardcore enough to attract anything but fail tanks it seems).
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby semp » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:32 am

Bear tanks shouldnt be wearing FR gear for the same reasons warriors, DKs, and paladins normally dont. They are sacraficing to much for just the stamina. He is much better of using a typical slot piece and gemming stamina to at least retain some threat and dodge. Try to explain to him that having high health pool doesnt always make it easier to heal when he could be avoiding more damage. Sounds like he needs to take a visist to the EJ bear tanking forums. Oh and FF on CD is a must for a threat rotation. Ive had mine hit for up to 5k threat.

And yes bear tanks are still very viable tanks, just not at the same OP levels they once were.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby Nocturum » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:04 am

I did not know the situation of your guild and I apologize about that. Uggh there are so many problems with bear tanks, but if you absolutely need him to tank tell him to help his frontload of threat he has to blow his CD's. I would suggest to him that he blows his Bezerk right away to help with the frontload and since there is not any Fears in that fight. A good macro I used was simple to write; /cast Enrage
/cast Barkskin
You offset the armor hit from Enrage with Barkskin. Between those two damage increasing CD's he MAY get enough of a frontload.
FF is not a huge boost in TPS but for sure use it to pull. It is always good to have it up so is a good addition in the rotation.
I have no clue how a bear gets rage starved on Hodir...tons of enviromental damage = tons of rage. If he is saying that he is rage starved he is lying. He is not generating enough threat and that is honest and hard to fix.

Rotation
Lacerate x1
Mangle x1
Swipe/Maul till Mangle CD is up then another Lacerate and Mangle
I used to scale my Lacerate stacks slowly because Maul hits for so much threat.

Your bear friend probably has the macro for the Swipe/Maul combo but if he doesnt there is a huge fix right there. I am at work so cant access many sites that would have it. If someone can copy and paste in here that would be cool.

I mean good luck with it is all I can say about bear tanking right now, but the definition of insanity is doing the same failed thing over and over again expecting different results!

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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby skolor » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:08 am

semp wrote:Bear tanks shouldnt be wearing FR gear for the same reasons warriors, DKs, and paladins normally dont. They are sacraficing to much for just the stamina. He is much better of using a typical slot piece and gemming stamina to at least retain some threat and dodge. Try to explain to him that having high health pool doesnt always make it easier to heal when he could be avoiding more damage.


The problem is that he's under the impression that he already dodges too much, and that is want is gimping his threat. According to him, on longer boss fights with slow hits (XT, Hodir and the like) he'll get a string of 3-4 dodges, which will completely eliminate his rage and let the DPS catch up. His solution is to only stack stamina, because that gives him more survivability without dodging more.
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Re: [Druid tanks] Questions

Postby Doogiehowser » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:40 am

Nocturum wrote:
Your bear friend probably has the macro for the Swipe/Maul combo but if he doesnt there is a huge fix right there. I am at work so cant access many sites that would have it. If someone can copy and paste in here that would be cool.



Macros for your bear friend

#showtooltip
/cast Mangle (Bear)(Rank 5)
/cast !Maul

#showtooltip
/cast Swipe (Bear)(Rank 8)
/cast !Maul

#showtooltip
/cast Lacerate()
/cast !Maul
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