[Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Joanadark » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:47 am

Probably the biggest inherent problem is that Paladins have one of the most generous Agility to crit ratios out there.

Did you know how they determine stuff like agi to crit ratios for a class? Its kind of interesting. what they do is they take a max level character of each class, and gear them out in "appropriate greens" for their class. They then look at the end stats of each character and adjust the ratios for stat benefits to create rough equality between the classes.
So because paladins have low base agi, and "appropriate greens" for a paladin have no agi on them, paladins have a very favorable agi to crit conversion.

The unintended side effect of this is that bleeding edge hard mode leather loot is very very very good for us. Better than plate.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:56 am

Just wanted to add a caveat to the Leather/plate 219's comparison.

While the expertise is 'small' on the Leather boots, it is the fact that it's Expertise on gear for a 10 man raider.

The problem between leather vs plate is compounded by needing to take into account 10 man versus 25 man loot.


And yes, I *could* get the 226 boots, but I'm not going to waste the gold. In the interest of comparison,

Footpads of Silence:
Leather Boots
69 agi
64 stam
blue socket
red socket (6 agi bonus)
48 hit rating
56 crit rating
114 AP


VS

Battlelord Plate Boots
Plate Boots
69 strength
126 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket (6 str Bonus)
49 crit rating
48 Haste Rating


Using the Redcape weight's and not taking into account the socket or bonuses

Leather = 27528
Plate = 18879

I might have done that wrong, but if I didn't, that's a difference of 8649 in favor of the leather.
Last edited by Shoju on Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:00 am

Shoju wrote:Boots and stuff

Shoju,

I did the swap last night to the leather and didn't realize that i was loosing a lot of hit from the bladed steel boots i had on; fortunately i had a pyrite infuser just laying around for +91 hit. Just something to keep in mind.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:08 am

Shoju wrote:Just wanted to add a caveat to the Leather/plate 219's comparison.

While the expertise is 'small' on the Leather boots, it is the fact that it's Expertise on gear for a 10 man raider.

The problem between leather vs plate is compounded by needing to take into account 10 man versus 25 man loot.


And yes, I *could* get the 226 boots, but I'm not going to waste the gold. In the interest of comparison,

Footpads of Silence:
Leather Boots
69 agi
64 stam
blue socket
red socket (6 agi bonus)
48 hit rating
56 crit rating
114 AP


VS

Battlelord Plate Boots
Plate Boots
69 strength
126 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket (6 str Bonus)
49 crit rating
48 Haste Rating


Using the Redcape weight's and not taking into account the socket or bonuses

Leather = 27528
Plate = 18879

I might have done that wrong, but if I didn't, that's a difference of 8649 in favor of the leather.

Well sure, if you need the hit. If any of that hit puts you over 263 rating, the leather drops dramatically. Same could be said for Expertise. There are no ratings on the Battlelord's that are capped.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:15 am

andx wrote:
Shoju wrote:Boots and stuff

Shoju,

I did the swap last night to the leather and didn't realize that i was loosing a lot of hit from the bladed steel boots i had on; fortunately i had a pyrite infuser just laying around for +91 hit. Just something to keep in mind.



Good to hear. I have a Pyrite infuser in the bank, but thankfully, I haven't been very lucky with drops / boots were a low priority to upgrade because I was hit capped without hit on boots.

For me, The Leather from the 5 man is probably where I'm headed if I can find them. It will give me the 5 expertise to cap out that I need (with glyph) and I wont lose anything as I'm currently using the Death inured Sabatons. What can I say? I've never seen good boots drop, and EoV's weren't exactly a commodity for 10 man raiders...

I made the Leather Belt (Death Warmed) as it's just a HUGE piece for me. Looking through the 10 man ToC loot, there isn't much that is going to be better than the belt. for a little bit. This could be because I value Armor Pen at a much reduced value than most people do when comparing it to other values. I know that it has DPS value for us, but much like Baelor dislikes leather and mail on a personal level, I dislike Armor Pen.

I don't want anyone to take this as a Me VS Baelor thing (someone did), as it is most assuredly not. It was me asking a question and the debate that ensued (at least IMO) has been a pretty good one at that.


@baelor's post above.
Yes, I will agree that the plate are better in a hit capped scenario if you can't swap out other gear to stay at cap. I will reserve judgement on expertise cap when I can actually get there :)
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby kanst » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:34 am

I will wear whatever increases my dps, if for some strange reason a cloth chest is a dps increase ill wear it.

My problem is that they seem to have steared plate wearers to Arp, I hate arp, I actively try to avoid it whenever I can. As such lots of the leather gear is better then the plate gear. I just crafted myself some footpads of silence last night (I know a little late but ret is my offspec and it took lots of whining to get the orbs from the gbank)
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Corpsicle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:56 am

I am using two leather pieces right now, the Helm of Midgard Serpent and the leather boots from the heroic TotC. Prot is main spec for me, when one of our two tanks goes dps it is our DK typically, not me. We have a ret paladin, an enhancement shaman, and a DPS warrior (sometimes). We also have a tree/cat, a cat/bear, and a rogue. As ret has been my secondary off spec, it has made getting upgrades to it difficult since I pass anything that is an upgrade to any of those people named above. Combine that with a lack of plate with expertise that I can get my hands on easily and it has made my two leather pieces look incredibly good to me for the moment.

I'd typically prefer to be in plate but not by enough of a margin that I would run 10 expertise skill short of the soft cap when I do get to run as dps.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:57 am

Corpsicle wrote:I'd typically prefer to be in plate but not by enough of a margin that I would run 10 expertise skill short of the soft cap when I do get to run as dps.

With or without the SoV glyph?
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Corpsicle » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:05 pm

With the glyph. I was main spec ret for the first couple months after hitting 80 and during that time I never saw any of the better drops in heroic Nax. Even after I went prot main spec, I've never seen the belt off Razuvious drop. At least with the 2 leather pieces + glyph I can reach the soft cap for expertise. Boots and helm were two of my weaker pieces anyways so it isn't 'that' much lost hehe.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby dougmcdonald » Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:46 am

Going back to the OP, I think this type of 'understanding' can be quite typical for a lot of people who just think if it's not plate, don't take it.
I have had similar issues at times when people see my boomkin rolling on/wearing a cloth piece. Or the one time I was removed from a naxx group for rolling on a leather caster piece with spirit because 'spirit isn't a dps stat' and then nothing was said about the prior roll where the healer rolled on a neck with +hit on it!

Unfortunately the people who comment on such decisions obviously do not appreciate that some people will actually do what is best for their character and weigh up stats on all gear classes without being pidgeonholled into what is 'right' for a class, and not just take things just because 'it's not red'

That being said, I would prefer to wear plate on my holy pally and leather on my boomkin, this is unfortauntely not always possible and quite simply pieces in plate/leather are not always optimal.
At the end of day, proving your dps was above the other players should have shut him up and proved a point.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby lusisia » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:56 am

Baelor wrote:
EDIT: As for holy paladins, since the topic is paladin PvE and not ret PvE, I can only assume that the spirit allocation on cloth/leather makes it less attractive. I don't know anything about mail vs plate, I don't heal.


Shammie gear isn't bad for Holy. I'm currently using the Greaves of the Earthbinder mail boots in my heal set just because nothing better has dropped. They're itemized, in 3.2 world, as well as some plate boots.

I personally have no aversion to mail or leather DPS gear either. For the longest time I was running with:

Ironaya's Discarded Mantle
Chestguard of the Lasher

in my Ret set because I didn't have anything better. The chest had the +hit I needed at the time and it was a clear DPS upgrade. Guise of the Midguard Serpent was a major DPS upgrade for me until I ghetto tokened the T8.5 helm. And I would have rolled on it too. All the druids and rogues in the guild already had it.
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