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[Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:47 pm

Shoju wrote:Greaves of the Earthbinder
Mail
Feet
50 stam
63 int
Blue Socket (+4 crit rating SB)
47 crit rating
21mp5
88 spellpower

Sabatons of the Iron Watcher
Plate
Feet
75 stam
54 int
41 crit
30 mp5
91 spellpower

Now, if you socket those like a holy paladin who has already met his meta gem requirement, the plate boots have less spellpower, less int, less crit, but more mp5.

Yes, in the long run, it's a 'slim' amount, and you could heal just fine in the plate, but the mail is just more optimized because you are giving up 250 HP.

-15 stamina
+9 intellect
+6 crit rating
-9 mp5
-3 spell power
+1 socket

That's what you get for "upgrading" to mail. Fine, yes, the mail boots are superior for healing. I'd argue that the socket skews the results, however.

Wowhead is blocked at work, so i can't do my own legwork here - what about 2 same-ilvl pieces that both do or don't have socket(s)? I'd posit that the gain is much smaller.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:58 pm

On it now. Will post a Holy - plate/mail/cloth something, and a Ret - of the same.

I don't have time (getting ready to leave work) to post them the way I did the last ones, but here are the ret boots that I would argue (and rawr agrees) are vastly better as leather than plate:

Ret (Both ilvl219)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Treads of Dismal Fortune <- Leather DPS boots
Plated Greaves of Providence <- Plated Greaves of Providence

Holy (both ilvl219)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46028] Faceguard of the eyeless horror [/url] <- Plate healy helm
[http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45687] Helm of Veiled energies [/url] <- Mail Healy Helm

Oddly, the mail healy helm has more stam + int, but is better itemized all around. the MP5 on the Plate helm is carrying MASSIVE itemization points compared to what you get.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:31 pm

Yeah those boots are for DK's not for us :(

How do those leather ones stack up against the BS crafted 226's? I'm an hour from leaving work else i would do it myself.
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:32 pm

Can't view, Wowhead blocked.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:34 pm

Baelor wrote:Can't view, Wowhead blocked.


Plated Greaves of Providence
Binds when picked up
Feet Plate
1580 Armor
+86 Strength
+78 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Strength
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 80
Item Level 219
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 38 (0.83% @ L80).
Equip: Increases your armor penetration rating by 59 (4.79% @ L80).
Sell Price: 10 51 48



Treads of Dismal Fortune
Binds when picked up
Feet Leather
398 Armor
+73 Agility
+54 Stamina
Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Agility
Durability 60 / 60
Requires Level 80
Item Level 219
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 59 (1.29% @ L80).
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 42 (5.12 @ L80).
Equip: Increases attack power by 113.
Sell Price: 8 18 75






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Last edited by andx on Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:59 pm

EDIT3: Baelor f'ed up the math, don't trust his calculations below. Man, that was a waste of time.

andx wrote:
Baelor wrote:Can't view, Wowhead blocked.


Plated Greaves of Providence
Binds when picked up
Feet Plate
1580 Armor
+86 Strength
+78 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Strength
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 80
Item Level 219
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 38 (0.83% @ L80).
Equip: Increases your armor penetration rating by 59 (4.79% @ L80).
Sell Price: 10 51 48



Treads of Dismal Fortune
Binds when picked up
Feet Leather
398 Armor
+73 Agility
+54 Stamina
Red Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Agility
Durability 60 / 60
Requires Level 80
Item Level 219
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 59 (1.29% @ L80).
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 42 (5.12 @ L80).
Equip: Increases attack power by 113.
Sell Price: 8 18 75

Normalizing the data into common ratings, taking into account Divine Strength and Blessing of Kings -

Plated Greaves of Providence:
283.8 AP
38 crit rating (0.828% crit)
59 ArP rating
78 STA

Treads of Dismal Fortune:
113 AP
129.8 crit rating (1.542% crit)
42 EXP
54 STA

Change from plate -> leather:
-170.8 AP
+91.8 crit rating (0.714% crit)
+42 EXP
-59 ArP
-24 STA

Using Redcape's 3.1 stat weightings (since I don't have the 3.2 updates handy)...
Weapon DPS 617
Hit 213
Str 166
Exp 154
Crit 81
Agi 76
Haste 72
Armor Penetration 72
AP 66
SP 15


... I come up with an aggregated item score change of -1617. That's a net loss using the leather, ignoring sockets and socket bonuses. Now, obviously, it might be different with 3.2 weightings. But, I'm still going with the plate here. You're losing a large chunk of AP and a little bit of armor pen for less than 1% increased crit and some expertise (5ish skill). I think the plate is better, and it has more stamina and armor.

Disclaimer: Baelor is using outdated stat weightings and is doing this math interspersed with, you know, actual work for his job, so all calculations subject to scrutiny, doubt, and math-fail.

EDIT: andx, get the Battlelords out of there, they're ilvl 226 and we're comparing ilvl 219 gears here.
EDIT2: Oh, andx, didn't scroll up to see you wanted to know the leather vs Battlelord comparison. Here goes nothing...
Since the Battlelords have 2 sockets, I'll need to assume one of them has a realized gain in order to level the playing field. So, let's assume a 20 strength gem in one socket and throw both the empty socket on the Battlelord's and the leather Treads out the window. So, with the 20 strength from the extra gem socket included on the Battlelord's, that makes it's normalized stats:
293.7 AP
49 crit rating (1.067% crit)
48 haste

... which converted to an item score using Redcape's 3.1 weightings is 26809.2, which when compared with the leather item's score of 24439.8 is a 2369.4 gain in score. Battlelord's is better, and better than the ilvl 219 boots above.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:09 pm

Oh hey its cool the leather looses to the 219's then these bad boys would demo but thanks for thinking, you are a god among men!

-Andx
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:17 pm

andx wrote:Oh hey its cool the leather looses to the 219's then these bad boys would demo but thanks for thinking, you are a god among men!

-Andx

Andx, edited the above to include your Battlelord request.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:20 pm

Baelor wrote:
andx wrote:Oh hey its cool the leather looses to the 219's then these bad boys would demo but thanks for thinking, you are a god among men!

-Andx

Andx, edited the above to include your Battlelord request.

Did i ever tell you you're my hero?
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
andx
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:01 am

Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:26 pm

andx wrote:
Baelor wrote:
andx wrote:Oh hey its cool the leather looses to the 219's then these bad boys would demo but thanks for thinking, you are a god among men!

-Andx

Andx, edited the above to include your Battlelord request.

Did i ever tell you you're my hero?

Not that I recall.
I am the light that brings the dawn.
Something Wicked this way comes.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:28 pm

Baelor wrote:
andx wrote:
Baelor wrote:Andx, edited the above to include your Battlelord request.

Did i ever tell you you're my hero?

Not that I recall.

Well you are
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:29 pm

I might have totally borked up that math, by the way. I'm fairly certain of it. I think I used the wrong modifier for the Divine Strength/Blessing of Kings conversion on the strength stats.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:35 pm

Revisiting my numbers to correct things in the ilvl 219 comparison.

The leather is right, item score of 24439.8.

However, the ilvl 219 plates should be:
217.58 AP
38 crit rating
59 ArP rating

... which converts to 21686.28 item score. A 2753.52 loss in value. All right, so the leather is better. Shows what happens when Baelor tries to do math. I think I'll leave this sort of thing to Theck from now on.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Kelaan » Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:41 pm

Shoju wrote:in 10 mans, with no access to 25 man loot, a lot of times, the leather is jaw droppingly better than the plate, because Blizzard is itemizing plate for warriors and Blood DK's who love armor pen, and get more than 35 expertise rating from their tier gear.


I completely concur. As an off-spec Ret player, I am pretty unlikely to get plate DPS gear until no one else wants it. Before I had emblems for 2xT8.5, my only sources were crafted (which I was too broke to get) or U10 gear. Capped at U10 gear, some of the leather pieces were substantially better than plate. The leather Malygos chest and the Guise of the Midgard Serpent were, if I remember correctly, significantly higher than just about anything else. (Of course, now that I have the T8.5 head/chest, I don't care as much. ;))

I pretty much go by "If Rawr says it's better ..." when looking at gear upgrades and goals. Sure, Armor pen isn't optimally suited to us ... but it's better than what I had, for some slots. I'm not expertise capped (I think?), but gemming STR still is better. The crafted (oremblem?) leather belt was, I believe, better than the plate one -- etc. I'm not out to be a glass cannon, though, and I certainly prefer the look of the plate pieces... but I take what uprgades I can get. =)

edit: For example, Rawr lists the crafted mail belt as ~3 dps better than the crafted plate one ... but with 600 less health. I'd totally prefer the plate there. =)
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Argali » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:41 am

Don't forget that in TBC there were several BiS items for fury warriors that were leather. Also, remember that Blizzard added the talents Bladed Armour and Armored to the Teeth to stem the rogue QQ. Shame there's no paladin equivalent.
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