[Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

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[Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:14 am

So I have seen it a couple of times here on the boards, and I recently encountered a very nasty paladin in game, and it has me wondering.

Why do so many ret and holy paladins have an aversion to lower 'grades' of armor?

Last night in a PuG, a prot paladin wanted me kicked from the group because of my gear. Seriously. It went down like this:


"I'm not going to tank if Sunetra is in this group." -him

"WTF? What did I do to you?" -me

"You don't know how to play your class. You gotta go, or I'm out." -him

"We haven't even made a pull, how do you know if I can play my class or not" -me.

At this point, he proceeds to link in party chat my leather helm, my mail gloves, my leather belt, and say:

"because you're a paladin. You're supposed to wear plate. Not this garbage." -him

Mind you, He linked

Guise of the midgard Serpent
Gloves of the Dark Exile (I will admit, I don't want these, but I was still rocking t7 gloves, and these were an upgrade.)
Death Warmed Belt

All properly enchanted, all gemmed str (except head which has 10 stats), and the head / belt are considered in the top 5 BiS items for 10 man raiders.

My response: "Fine. If you wont tank for me, I'm out. I'm not going to run with someone so narrowminded as you".

After 5 mins of LF another DPS for H:ToC, they couldn't find one, and he said that he would deal with the bad player. I then go on to beat out the rest of the DPS by ~1k by the end of the run. (BTW: The healer posted the meter)

I only responded with: "Guess I should L2P" and dropped group.

Why is there such an aversion to leather? I know, it doesn't have str on it, but an upgrade is an upgrade IMO. I mean, If there was a way to increase my dps by being naked, I would do it. The tanks job is to hold aggro, the healers job is to keep the tank upright, and the DPS job is to make whatever is beating on the tank die. Why does it matter if I choose the BiS leather or mail piece over the mediocre poorly itemized plate?
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Jedah » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:20 am

people are stupid, It surprises me that you haven't figured this out yet.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:22 am

Oh, I have figured out that people are stupid, it just surprises me just how stupid some of them are. I have seen holy paladins who wont take a cloth/leather/mail piece as an upgrade because it's not plate, and people who think I need to clad myself in less than optimal pieces because it is plate.

I'm just trying to find out if there is a reason for it? Did I miss a paladin memo that came out before I rolled mine in 2.4?
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:23 am

1. I wear plate because I don't have to compete with the rogues, hunters, enhancement shaman, and feral druids for it.
2. I wear plate because it gives me a higher margin for error against random physical damage effects that may try to drain my green bar.
3. I wear plate because it has higher stamina and therefore gives me more cushion against random AoE effects while still increasing my DPS an appreciable amount.
4. I wear plate because I like the way it looks better.

I won't scoff at plate-capable classes who wear leather/mail. I'll keep wearing plate, myself, though.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:28 am

Baelor wrote:1. I wear plate because I don't have to compete with the rogues, hunters, enhancement shaman, and feral druids for it.
2. I wear plate because it gives me a higher margin for error against random physical damage effects that may try to drain my green bar.
3. I wear plate because it has higher stamina and therefore gives me more cushion against random AoE effects while still increasing my DPS an appreciable amount.
4. I wear plate because I like the way it looks better.

I won't scoff at plate-capable classes who wear leather/mail. I'll keep wearing plate, myself, though.


And if that's is your opinion, that's cool by me. I'm just wondering why is all.

I personally hate most of the plate in WotLK because of the amount of Stamina on it. The ulduar crafted DPS pieces have more stamina than the tank pieces....
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:32 am

I wear plate mostly due to the fact we have 2 rogues and a enhance shammy in our 10 man group so getting my hands on nice leather and mail is difficult. Also i play on a fairly low pop server so crafters that craft the high level recipes are scarce. I wouldn't be opposed to wearing the other types of armor but being the only plate dps in our 10 man groups, I usually only have access to plate.
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Doogiehowser » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:37 am

I don't think it's an aversion to leather or mail. It's just that they don't understand the math behind items as to why certain mail and leather pieces are better than plate. I think that if they used their brain for 15 minutes of research on wowwiki and then did some simple math that they would be able to figure it out themselves. Or even easier, download Rawr.

Rarely do you find someone that understands the how stats actually affect their characters. We are a minority when it comes to knowledge and researching this game. If you're on this site, chances are you're on other sites trying to maximize your performance.

I had a 45 minute discussion with all my friends and guild members that play paladins the benefit of Vindication in the ret tree as a tank. Literally, it was 44 minutes of people shouting over vent on how it's only a PvP talent and it does so little for mitigation. Finally, the light went off in their heads and they saw it as Demo Shout/Demoralizing Roar and all ran off to their trainers to respec.

Sounds like your tank doesn't want to think on his own and do his own research. He'd rather dismiss your thought and your own research without taking a moment to question the "norm".

Shrug it off. Life's too short... It's great that you beat everyone on the meters though. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Edit: Me likey to writez the good grammarz
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Joanadark » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:49 am

I wear cloth cause it increases my wowheroes gear score!
Thats what really matters right?
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:52 am

Joanadark wrote:I wear cloth cause it increases my wowheroes gear score!
Thats what really matters right?

of course Gear score > Skill
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:52 am

andx wrote:I wear plate mostly due to the fact we have 2 rogues and a enhance shammy in our 10 man group so getting my hands on nice leather and mail is difficult. Also i play on a fairly low pop server so crafters that craft the high level recipes are scarce. I wouldn't be opposed to wearing the other types of armor but being the only plate dps in our 10 man groups, I usually only have access to plate.


Yeah, I normally willingly give the mail/leather to our lesser armor classes first, unless it's a widely understood BiS.

My guild has 22 'active' (by active raids at least once a week) raiders. Because of this, and that we don't all raid the same days (we as a guild raid 3 days a week, only 4 people raid all 3) we end up with very weird compositions

Our breakdown is:

Druid 4 [1 dps /tank, 1 healer, 1 boomkin, 1 who comes as whatever is needed]
Death Knight 1 Tank
Hunter 2 (1 of the warriors has a hunter he raids on when we don't need a tank)
Mage 0 (that's right. Who needs mages?)
Paladin 2 [1 holy/ret, 1ret/holy ]
Priest 4
Rogue 2
Shaman 4 [1 enhance/resto, 2 ele/resto, 1 resto]
Warlock 1
Warrior 3 [2 tank, 1 dps]
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:55 am

Shoju wrote:Mage 0 (that's right. Who needs mages?)


Must suck being hungry and thirsty....
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Baelor » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:57 am

Shoju wrote:
Baelor wrote:1. I wear plate because I don't have to compete with the rogues, hunters, enhancement shaman, and feral druids for it.
2. I wear plate because it gives me a higher margin for error against random physical damage effects that may try to drain my green bar.
3. I wear plate because it has higher stamina and therefore gives me more cushion against random AoE effects while still increasing my DPS an appreciable amount.
4. I wear plate because I like the way it looks better.

I won't scoff at plate-capable classes who wear leather/mail. I'll keep wearing plate, myself, though.


And if that's is your opinion, that's cool by me. I'm just wondering why is all.

I personally hate most of the plate in WotLK because of the amount of Stamina on it. The ulduar crafted DPS pieces have more stamina than the tank pieces....

Stamina isn't evil.

Rogues have evasion, cloak of shadows, sprint, copious amounts of dodge from agility, and vanish to help them avoid damage. We have Divine Shield, Art of War heals, and butt-loads of stamina/armor. Against attacks that don't insta-kill you on contact, soaking a little more than our rogue-ish neighbors isn't always a bad thing.
EDIT: Plus, I don't usually get to use my Divine Shield when I want, since I need to tie it to Divine Sacrifice to raid-wall against AoE's. So I'm left with little to no tools for damage mitigation/avoidance as a DPS.

Sure, it takes item budget away from DPS-increasing talents. But I personally don't like dying. Being a glass-cannon melee type is bad times. The DPS "loss" from using plate over leather isn't usually a big difference. For example, the EJ 3.1 BiS listing has the "all items" Horde set clocking in at 6661 DPS, vs. the "plate priority" Horde list clocking in at 6579.

Another sample - 3.2 Alliance currently theorycrafted list according to EJ modeling has hard mode plate set at 9465, and the "all items" hard mode set at 9652.

We're talking about 100-200 DPS difference in the sets, maximum. The "greatness" of leather/mail is overblown, in my opinion. My parses, if I do things correctly, will end up 1-2% behind what they "could be." I'm not striving for world 1st, I'm okay with that.

Plate gives me statistically similar results with less competition and greater margin for error. That's why I don't pursue leather/mail unless it's a jaw-dropping upgrade and no rogues/ferals/hunters/shaman want it.

EDIT: As for holy paladins, since the topic is paladin PvE and not ret PvE, I can only assume that the spirit allocation on cloth/leather makes it less attractive. I don't know anything about mail vs plate, I don't heal.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:24 pm

Baelor wrote:Stamina isn't evil.

Rogues have evasion, cloak of shadows, sprint, copious amounts of dodge from agility, and vanish to help them avoid damage. We have Divine Shield, Art of War heals, and butt-loads of stamina/armor. Against attacks that don't insta-kill you on contact, soaking a little more than our rogue-ish neighbors isn't always a bad thing.
EDIT: Plus, I don't usually get to use my Divine Shield when I want, since I need to tie it to Divine Sacrifice to raid-wall against AoE's. So I'm left with little to no tools for damage mitigation/avoidance as a DPS.

Sure, it takes item budget away from DPS-increasing talents. But I personally don't like dying. Being a glass-cannon melee type is bad times. The DPS "loss" from using plate over leather isn't usually a big difference. For example, the EJ 3.1 BiS listing has the "all items" Horde set clocking in at 6661 DPS, vs. the "plate priority" Horde list clocking in at 6579.

Another sample - 3.2 Alliance currently theorycrafted list according to EJ modeling has hard mode plate set at 9465, and the "all items" hard mode set at 9652.

We're talking about 100-200 DPS difference in the sets, maximum. The "greatness" of leather/mail is overblown, in my opinion. My parses, if I do things correctly, will end up 1-2% behind what they "could be." I'm not striving for world 1st, I'm okay with that.

Plate gives me statistically similar results with less competition and greater margin for error. That's why I don't pursue leather/mail unless it's a jaw-dropping upgrade and no rogues/ferals/hunters/shaman want it.

EDIT: As for holy paladins, since the topic is paladin PvE and not ret PvE, I can only assume that the spirit allocation on cloth/leather makes it less attractive. I don't know anything about mail vs plate, I don't heal.


Yes, Stamina isn't evil, but I rarely find myself wishing that I had the extra 500 HP from wearing the plate vs the leather.

If I were in 25 man raids, I'm sure that I would be more interested in plate, as the
1.) the itemization doesn't absolutely suck in 25 mans
2.) there would be more competition
3.) I would probably need more health.

As it is in 10 mans, to do 'good' DPS, you have to use leather to get 15 expertise so the seal will take you the rest of the way.

I'm not saying that the greatness isn't overblown. Gone are the days of TBC where the leather was almost always the better piece.

Again, in 10 mans, with no access to 25 man loot, a lot of times, the leather is jaw droppingly better than the plate, because Blizzard is itemizing plate for warriors and Blood DK's who love armor pen, and get more than 35 expertise rating from their tier gear.

As for cloth, there is a lot of cloth/leather/ and especially mail spellpower gear that doesn't have spirit or hit on it. (144 epic ilvl 200 items or better to be exact). Sometimes, the gear is just vastly superior. Probably more so in the healing department than in the ret department. Take a look at these boots. They both drop from the same boss in Ulduar 10.


Greaves of the Earthbinder
Mail
Feet
50 stam
63 int
Blue Socket (+4 crit rating SB)
47 crit rating
21mp5
88 spellpower

Sabatons of the Iron Watcher
Plate
Feet
75 stam
54 int
41 crit
30 mp5
91 spellpower

Now, if you socket those like a holy paladin who has already met his meta gem requirement, the plate boots have less spellpower, less int, less crit, but more mp5.

Yes, in the long run, it's a 'slim' amount, and you could heal just fine in the plate, but the mail is just more optimized because you are giving up 250 HP.

Yes, Stamina is a good thing, and there is a good point to be made about having enough, but there comes a time where the itemization of it makes Plate gear less than optimal to anything that isn't a tank.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:30 pm

andx wrote:
Shoju wrote:Mage 0 (that's right. Who needs mages?)


Must suck being hungry and thirsty....


Meh, who stops to drink anymore? it either dies and we move on or we wipe. Even with all the changes to mana, we just don't see it being a big enough issue to complain about.

PLUS, we have some very zealous fishers in guild who will drop a fish feast (and have competitions to see who get's their's out fastest sometimes) whenever it's needed.

There has been a raid or two that I have even brought my alt mage out to the stone, added to raid, made a table, and logged back over. But really, we just don't see the mana issues.
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Re: [Paladin-PVE] Aversion to leather, mail, and cloth

Postby andx » Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:41 pm

Shoju wrote:
Meh, who stops to drink anymore? it either dies and we move on or we wipe. Even with all the changes to mana, we just don't see it being a big enough issue to complain about.

PLUS, we have some very zealous fishers in guild who will drop a fish feast (and have competitions to see who get's their's out fastest sometimes) whenever it's needed.

There has been a raid or two that I have even brought my alt mage out to the stone, added to raid, made a table, and logged back over. But really, we just don't see the mana issues.

you guys recruiting? everyone acts like fish feasts are gold here... :(
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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