[RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Kedon » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:49 am

Mert wrote:A guildie of mine said he found the best DPS by letting SoV stack up to five then switching to SoC to nuke like crazy and then switch back to SoV each time it drops off. He reported some mana issues doing this, though found they were offset by ensuring DP was definitely up at every cooldown.

I'm not entirely convinced that the constant using up of a GCD is necessarily the highest DPS but I wonder what others' thoughts are on this?


I don't see how that is a dps increase. Wasted gcd's for one. SoC is 36% weapon damage, SoV is 33% and benefits from Seals of the Pure. Seal damage is almost equal, but Judgement of Vengeance hits like a truck and JoC hits like a wet rag.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Chicken » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:49 am

Proper talents boost SoV up to 38% of weapon damage, while SoC remains at 36% of weapon damage. Even without Seals of the Pure that couldn't be close to a DPS gain on a single target.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Candiru » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:21 am

Also, SoV only rolls to hit once, while SoC rolls twice.

This means SoV is better by even more unless you are expertise + hit capped (although I guess most ret are)

That and JoC hits for nothing.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby kanst » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:29 am

My main spec is prot but my ret gear is pretty solid.

I dont get to ret very often in Ulduar, but I did on Hodir last night. I pulled 9.3k DPS which is way higher then anything I did last patch. Given that is the perfect fight since I get to just stand and spam my rotation into the boss.

For anyone who wants to see a general breakdown here is our log

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ugQ3govp ... 289&e=5508

The dot accounted for like 6% of my damage, I also got an almost 30k judgement crit with storm power.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Shoju » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:40 am

kanst wrote:My main spec is prot but my ret gear is pretty solid.

I dont get to ret very often in Ulduar, but I did on Hodir last night. I pulled 9.3k DPS which is way higher then anything I did last patch. Given that is the perfect fight since I get to just stand and spam my rotation into the boss.

For anyone who wants to see a general breakdown here is our log

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ugQ3govp ... 289&e=5508

The dot accounted for like 6% of my damage, I also got an almost 30k judgement crit with storm power.



I'm assuming that your guild did not have you breaking the NPC's back out? Can't get to parse right now to check.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby kanst » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:50 am

Shoju wrote:I'm assuming that your guild did not have you breaking the NPC's back out? Can't get to parse right now to check.


Melee break out a shaman on the start then are on boss 100% range break out mages after flash freeze and mages break out rest of guys.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Joanadark » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:50 am

Hand of reckoning still does damage to targets that are taunt immune. I did 6.1k DPS on Vezax hard mode yesturday by taunting on cooldown. Hand of reckoning averaged 6k damage per use, contributed over 200k to my total damage over the course of the fight, and represented 9.6% of my DPS.

It is also amazingly awesome for Yog Saron.

Killed XT hard before I discovered the hand of reckoning thing, and using SoV the entire fight I did a little over 7.1k DPS.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Horanur » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:36 am

So i guess this leaves us with an interesting choice.

SoV Glyph = 10 Expertise skill

If you're a good ret pally, you were already sitting at about 24-25 expertise. This will put you at 34. way over "cap". So, those of you reporting DPS loss, have you re-gemmed and/or enchanted, or swapped out gear in order to account for the sudden overcap on expertise? Keep in mind this is a double-edged sword. If you're using glyph to expertise cap, you will drop 10 skill BELOW expertise cap if you swap seals. Maybe have a weapon with EXP on it for that situation and make a gear swap macro if swapping to SoR?

I've been hoarding gear with no expertise on it for some time now, just waiting for this patch to throw them on. Getting to hit-cap and then dropping EXP for additional haste and crit could go a long way in making up that damage loss.

Also, who cares about AE loss. Bosses dying faster gets you kills, not trash dying faster. We still contribute to incidental AE in the "melee pile" with consecrate and divine storm, this change isn't going to suddenly make your guild wipe to thorim or other such add-rush type encounters. I understand that losing some cool points on the recount meter is frustrating, but more single target dps is going to mean that, overall, you are contributing more to the raid.

I would take an AE damage nerf any day for the chance to inflict more single-target pain on the majority of bosses.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Joanadark » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:12 am

kanst wrote:My main spec is prot but my ret gear is pretty solid.

I dont get to ret very often in Ulduar, but I did on Hodir last night. I pulled 9.3k DPS which is way higher then anything I did last patch. Given that is the perfect fight since I get to just stand and spam my rotation into the boss.

For anyone who wants to see a general breakdown here is our log

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ugQ3govp ... 289&e=5508

The dot accounted for like 6% of my damage, I also got an almost 30k judgement crit with storm power.


Hodir is a terrible fight to look at DPS for. You got 5 storm powers. You'd have to be retarded to not be at least in the 9-10k range with an over 50% up-time on 135% increased crit damage.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Ano » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:13 am

Putting SoV glyph if you're under 22 exp is a dps gain over glyph of exo


but, with the amount of gear that has exp you shouldnt be having lots of problems getting to 26.

I'm willing to bet that the pay off of using the glyph to get exp cap over the glyph of exo is pretty marginal, and would over the coarse of a raid be an overall dps loss... due to situations where u arent using sov.


Sure if you wanted to reglyph or regear between trash and boss pulls you would would probably come out ahead, but it seems like a lot of work for such a small gain.


I'll keep my 3.1 glyphs and get my exp from gear
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Ano » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:20 am

At work and limited on my theaorycraft supplies so i could be way off base and just tossing around dumb...

HoW > CS > Judge > DS > ect ect ect...

But, with CS being on a 4 sec CD
and judge being on an 8 sec CD
I've been seeing a lot of clashes. Would it be at all smart to go 1/2 into imp judge instead of 2/2?


Just to cut down on the clash, not to mention freeing up a talent point for things like

SoC
POJ
Divine Sac
Aura Mastery

clearly the point could go where ever you wanted, and or skimped on trying to reach further into holy/prot
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Horanur » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:35 am

I could see where that would be an issue, if you have alot of EXP gear and nothing else available. But i have many,many options were i could switch in "better" gear that has more STR and crit on it. By picking up SoV glyph i open up alot of possibilities for stat gain elsewhere.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Proudfoot » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:50 pm

So after running a few heroics and doing decent damage I realized I didn't respec to pick up SotP. what are you guys leaving out of your build to pick up everything and still get Aura mastery?

I left one point out of imp Judgement because I had heard you get no benifit from having it at 2/2 with the clashing GCD's. Can anyone verify? or what should I have left points out of?
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Modal » Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:21 am

I topped the chart on Hodir last night myself, which I've never quite done before. I joined late so didn't have a combatlog running; I'm not sure how much buff uptime I had. I know that's not a good baseline fight. The biggest relief for me was that I didn't find it very difficult to help break out adds without letting my stack fall off.

Unfortunately I had to go tank for Freya, so I didn't get to see how hard the ramp up time hurts there. But on Elder Brightleaf I did over 6k dps, which is a new single-target personal best (that was without using heroism I'm pretty sure). I would have maybe managed 5k previously. Of course, that's a short enough fight that a higher percentage of it is spent with wings up than on longer boss fights.

I'm not finding that my dps suffers that much in heroics either. I think the last minute compromise change was good. Since even 2-3 stacks makes the proc ok in comparison with SoR, I have found myself doing pretty much the same dps I used to do in heroics using SoV, and that's running with dps that blows stuff up long before a 5 stack every time.

AoE dps is definitely nerfed. But not to the ground; we just have different strengths now. Overall I'm cautiously optimistic.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Modal » Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:24 am

Proudfoot wrote:So after running a few heroics and doing decent damage I realized I didn't respec to pick up SotP. what are you guys leaving out of your build to pick up everything and still get Aura mastery?

I left one point out of imp Judgement because I had heard you get no benifit from having it at 2/2 with the clashing GCD's. Can anyone verify? or what should I have left points out of?


I think that you definitely want 2/2 Imp. Judgement as ret.

My current spec is this: 12/5/54. The 3 points in Divine Intellect kinda make me cringe, but I couldn't really see any other use for them, and we at least get some marginal mana-return benefit from it.
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