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[RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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[RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:21 am

I know heroics should be taken with a grain of salt, but since that was all I was able to run last night, I put together some data. My average Heroic DPS self buffed with the following group:

DK Tank (Frost)
Shaman (enh/resto)
Priest (disc/shadow)
Warlock (Destro)
Myself

with either the priest or shaman healing is about 3600 dps pre-patch. Last night, while running with SoV, my DPS was 2400. While Running SoR, My DPS was about 3k.

On trash, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to run SoV. I tried it, and on the trash in H:DtK and H:VH my DPS was 2200, when normally it's pushing 4k on the AoE packs. I even had a judgement hit a mob for 690..... YES Six hundred Ninety. Granted this was with 0 stacks of Vengeance on the mob, and was purely for testing purposes, but 690? I have had Ice Lances on non frozen mobs HIT (not crit) for more than that.

With SoR up, I was able to crack 3300 DPS on an AoE Pack, and my judgements were critting somewhere in the 5-6k range.

I have not tested SoC, and honestly with the judgement damage being the same as it was on the PTR, I don't plan to.

The Exorcism Cast time, and Art of War interaction? It's a joke. Basically, all they did was make it so you can't Exo on the way in during a pull anymore.

Want a little burst at the end of a fight? I have found that Hand of Reckoning hits for a TON now. I was getting 2600 normal hits, and 4k crits on it. I found that I was able to Hammer + Hand at the end of a fight and polish off mobs that much faster. Yes, you will pull aggro doing it, but it's a nice little finisher at the end of a fight.


All in all the changes are very dissapointing. I expected there to be a DPS loss, but in a heroic, I'm looking at somewhere between an 18-20% DPS loss so far. I will post more on Friday after I have had a chance to raid with SoV and see how it's working in a place where I can do GC's Beloved Ramp up and test my DPS there.

For those of you who care about such things, My current stats are (unbuffed straight from armory):

3495 AP (1268 str for factoring Kings etc...)
280 Hit (Yes I know I'm over the cap, I haven't bothered re-gemming since I got the pyrite infuser)
31.68% Crit
19 Expertise
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Jasari » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:29 am

Heroics are a bad test of DPS. My affliction warlock is virtually worthless in there unless I'm able to Seed Spam which only works on big pulls. Welcome to being a "ramp up" class :p.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby andx » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:01 am

Heyyyy I ran naxx10 last night during the marathon badge runs. On patchwerk I used to pull 4.8k, last night i pulled 5.6k. I'm in love with the new SoV as prot, not so much with ret as of yet because i feel weak on short fights or fights where you swtich targets or aoe fights.

unbuffed stats

3807atp
28.26% crit
285 hit
16 exp
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:10 am

They may be a bad test of DPS, but it's measurable. I have the data from my monday night round of heroics. I have the data from my post 3.2 round of heroics when I did and didn't use the ramp up.

This is a nerf. He was able to vastly improve his Patchwerk DPS. Well, that's awesome. Now, get me comparisons on what you do on XT now as opposed to what you did before. That, is a more accurate assessment of the problem.


I ran the heroic ToC 5 man last night with a rogue, who is supposed to be another 'ramp up' class in GC's words. He pulled 5700 DPS, I pulled 2800. we're comparably geared (he might have 1 more piece of uld loot than me) and in the same setting. Why is it ok for one ramp up class to do double that of another ramp up class?
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Chicken » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:21 am

Rogues aren't a ramp-up class in an AoE situation, since they just spam Fan of Knives and largely ignore combo point generation for those.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:37 am

Chicken wrote:Rogues aren't a ramp-up class in an AoE situation, since they just spam Fan of Knives and largely ignore combo point generation for those.



My point was more that GC said that we should ramp up like rogues, when in actuality rogues don't really ramp up the way he thinks.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Isetnefret » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:54 am

I did 2200 DPS avg over the span of a Heroic OK run, with Nax10 gear, and a couple of Ulduar10 pieces.


Ret is my off-spec.


This is a big nerf mainly because of the fight mechanics.

1st boss....you have to switch off and kill the guardian. Sometimes you can do this before 5 stacks fall off.
2nd boss....you have to switch off when he vanishes.
3rd boss (supposed to be final boss, but timer is ticking)....you have to switch off to kill illusions of yourself.
4th boss....you have to switch off when she flies into the air
5th boss ....he's a mushroom that gets pwned hardcore.....the only DPS improvement in the whole place
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby andx » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:59 am

Shoju wrote:They may be a bad test of DPS, but it's measurable. I have the data from my monday night round of heroics. I have the data from my post 3.2 round of heroics when I did and didn't use the ramp up.

This is a nerf. He was able to vastly improve his Patchwerk DPS. Well, that's awesome. Now, get me comparisons on what you do on XT now as opposed to what you did before. That, is a more accurate assessment of the problem.


I ran the heroic ToC 5 man last night with a rogue, who is supposed to be another 'ramp up' class in GC's words. He pulled 5700 DPS, I pulled 2800. we're comparably geared (he might have 1 more piece of uld loot than me) and in the same setting. Why is it ok for one ramp up class to do double that of another ramp up class?


Just a suggestion. The BEST idea for heroics/raids, invest in haste pots.

I'll do a test on XT tonight when i get home but i have a feeling i'll be either where i was or just a bit above it depending on Light bombs and such. Infact i will let you know about all of the ulduar fights we do tonight.

I run with:
1 Protadin
1 Blood DK Tank
1 Disc Priest
1 Resto/enhance Shammy
1 Resto Druid
1 MM Hunter
1 Unholy DK DPS
1 Arcane Mage
1 Ass/combat Rogue


My predictions:

Razor- Lower by a fair amount if i just use SoV. On this fight i will use SoR until Razor is grounded then i will switch to SoV and pop a haste pot. So I'm thinking i'll be about where i was before. Same

Ignis- I will be higher on this one by a good margin

Xt- This one is where i'm unsure as to wether i should 1.) just try to use SoV the entire time or 2.) Sov body and SoR heart. Either way i'm thinking i'll be a little higher.

Kolo- This one i will be using SoV the entire time, Haste off the bat on the hand then shammie BL on the body. I'll be higher here i'm thinkin

IC- I'll be higher on Steelbreaker and Molgim and gimped on Brundir. I'll be about the same over all.

Cat Lady- Too much target switching here. I may just use SoR for this fight as i dont think refreshing the 5 stack on the boss will be very easy. I'm going to say i'll be lower here but i dont know what seal to use. Lower

Thorim- I run the gauntlet so i'll use SoR for that then switch to SoV for boss. I'll be the same on this boss

Hodir- Too much target switching but beams help. I'm guessing i'll be higher here but then again this one may be lower due to break outs

Freya- Too many targets in first phase so i'll SoR that then go SoV for boss i'm thinking i'll be the same on this boss.

Mim- This fight I will be lower i think. We usually do something weird here and I die instantly most of the time haha.

Vezzax- higher here no questions really.

Yogg- UGH this one is gonna suck.

Previous DPS
All non hardmode

Razor- 5.2k
Ignis- high 4's like 4.8k
XT- 6k
Kolo- 5.5k
IC- 4.6k
Cat Lady- 5k
Thorim- 4.7k
Hodir- 6k (love those buffs :D)
Freya- 5.2k
Mim- 4.3k
Vezzax- 4.4k
Yogg- 4k ( i suck at this fight)


BTW: I could only pop off 3.2k in heroics when i'm normally around 4k. I may just use SoR in heroics.


Oh and DAMN did DK's get a buff or what! i'm trying to convince our dk to get IIT(improved Icy Talons) that would help my DPS a TON. he told me if I buy him Greatness he will respec to it... hmmm....

thanks,
Andx
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:41 am

I think you are going to find Seal Twisting mid fight is going to REALLY hurt your mana pool. I'm predicting


Ignis - UP
Razor - Down
XT - We just don't give him much time between heart phases. this is going to be a BIG down for me. Body - Heart - Body for 5 seconds - Heart - Body for 5 seconds - Heart .... too much switching.
IC - I'm thinking overall probably the same.
Kolo - I'm not sure. We normally don't DPS the arms unless someone is in the arms, trying to get the both arms achievement lately. probably about even.
Auraiya - Up. We don't kill the feral defender anymore. Kill the sentries, and then heal through the defender on 10 man
Hodir - I've been told I will be allowed to stay on Hodir full time :) UP
Thorim - When I dps I'm in the Arena. Down.
Freya - Down
Mim - Down
Vezax Our time to shine
Yogg - We are currently working on P2 yogg, so I'm not sure.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby andx » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:01 am

Shoju wrote:I think you are going to find Seal Twisting mid fight is going to REALLY hurt your mana pool. I'm predicting

I dont think twisting will hurt much if you only do it once or twice a fight. I think it would drain you if it was more often but you can just pop DP seal switch judge and go is what I'm thinking. Like on freya. adds SoR once add phase is over twist to SoV and go.
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Earantur » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:09 pm

Shoju wrote:Yogg - We are currently working on P2 yogg, so I'm not sure.

Having recently downed yogg, my opinion is that having to use SoV instead of blood is a huge drop in dps for ret over the fight. The 2 points in phase 2 were you're on the brain itself is probably the only time in the fight I can think of where you're on a single target for more than a few seconds.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby majiben » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:05 pm

Earantur wrote:
Shoju wrote:Yogg - We are currently working on P2 yogg, so I'm not sure.

Having recently downed yogg, my opinion is that having to use SoV instead of blood is a huge drop in dps for ret over the fight. The 2 points in phase 2 were you're on the brain itself is probably the only time in the fight I can think of where you're on a single target for more than a few seconds.

Yogg himself.
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Tekkel » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:36 am

Been playing with ret a bit last night in ulduar and the single target dmg is deffo in the higher regions if you can just stick to a target for a bit longer. Trashdps has deffo went down alot but I lolled at all the dk's dying with their new build and huge aoe threat :)
I haven't parsed the logs yet but I was doing 6k+ dps on single target now like XT. We did it hardmode though and I just stuck to the boss after the heartphase for the entire time.

Gonna hold my heart for the targetswap shit though. the dot stack should just be self buff and apply to all targets you hit or something.

Wat amazed me more was our prot pally doing 3.5k dps while tanking him...
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Mert » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:16 am

A guildie of mine said he found the best DPS by letting SoV stack up to five then switching to SoC to nuke like crazy and then switch back to SoV each time it drops off. He reported some mana issues doing this, though found they were offset by ensuring DP was definitely up at every cooldown.

I'm not entirely convinced that the constant using up of a GCD is necessarily the highest DPS but I wonder what others' thoughts are on this?
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Re: [RET-PVE] first round of live testing with SoV change

Postby Mert » Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:20 am

Majiben wrote:Yogg himself.


We usually put our ranged on Yogg and our melee on the adds, though this is a good point and it'd certainly warrant moving at least the Retridins over to Yogg in terms of overall Raid DPS.
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