[Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

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[Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Harlequina » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:28 am

(scroll down to bolded text if you cba)

Hello, as I was fiddling around with my ret set in rawr, seeing as 3.2 is coming to us now, I noticed something "odd".

I updated all of my current ret gear on rawr to epic gems and such. Also, I found the "3.2 mode" button. Great, I thought. Proceeded then to change seal to Seal of Vengeance instead of Blood, and also changed the glyphs (SoV).

Now, all seemed fine and dandy, there was a DPS increase. Had to fiddle with JC gems aswell since they won't be prismatic anymore. When I went ahead to use the optimizer, it actually did something major to increase my DPS by about 200 or so - it made me use 4 set T7 (along with Obsidian Greathelm).

On live right now I only use 2 pieces of T7 - gloves and leggings. Rawr wanted me to use chest and shoulders aswell, and also a different weapon (Hoperender, which I got banked). Cool, I still thought, because it was a DPS increase after all. But when I checked through some more things, more importantly, how much DPS each talent does, it turns out that Improved Judgements "wasn't being used", even though it said I had 2 points on it on talents. So I went ahead to remove the points in it and add them again. What happened? This:

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/2451/2pjlessdps.jpg

Could that possibly be? DPS is DECREASED by 126 if I put 2 points into Imp Judge?

Note that, when I DON'T use 4 piece T7, it is a DPS increase with 2 points in Imp Judge. But before when I let the optimizer in rawr change my gear into 4 piece T7, it didn't seem to account that DPS decrease that I apparently should get with having 2 points in Imp Judge. It only shows that decrease if I actually re-add the points into Imp Judge.

So, is it true what rawr shows? That having a 7 second CD on Judgement would be a DPS decrease rather than an increase compared to 8 second Judgement in 3.2?

In the end, this is just my offspec. Protection is where it's at (LOVE YOU FELLOW TANKADINS). So maybe I shouldn't care too much, but I still do and this is weird to me, unless the "3.2 mode" in the current rawr is fully and capably working.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Harlequina » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:49 am

When I load my ret setup (3.2 mode, T7 4 piece):
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7332 ... dps321.jpg

NOTE that it says on the stats window that the Judgement CD is 7.18 seconds. Also note that it doesn't actually say that I have the Imp Judgements talent on the "DPS per talent" window.




When I RE-ADD the points into Imp Judge:
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8445 ... s32331.jpg

It now says that the Judgement CD is at 9.90 seconds.

WAT
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Arcten » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:16 am

I'm sorry, what is this "Rawr". I looked on Curse last night, thinking it was an addon. I couldn't find it. I mean there was an addon called "Rawr" but the post on it said that it just made noises in-game when you did your /roar emote.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby andx » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:22 am

Arcten wrote:I'm sorry, what is this "Rawr". I looked on Curse last night, thinking it was an addon. I couldn't find it. I mean there was an addon called "Rawr" but the post on it said that it just made noises in-game when you did your /roar emote.

Its not an addon its a standalone character simulator. Basically you enter the gear you have on your character or get the info from the armory and you can see what would increase your dps and by how much as well as simulate different priorities or specs or gems or what have you. It is a great tool to use when trying to figure out how to juice all of the dps possible out of gear as well as proper itemization.

andx
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Arcten » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:26 am

URL?

I normally use Max DPS.com, but this sounds even cooler.

*EDIT:
http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr

Got it, thanks.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Ano » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:28 am

Arcten wrote:URL?

I normally use Max DPS.com, but this sounds even cooler.

*EDIT:
http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr

Got it, thanks.



http://www.codeplex.com/Rawr


it takes some playing with to figure stuff otu but it's hot once u figure everything out. I would check that link periodically there will be a barage of updates for it for the next couple weeks while it catches up and tweaks things fromt he patch.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Kelaan » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:07 pm

Oh, and it has an armory import function, which saves bunches of time.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Kedon » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:19 pm

As far as I can remember, using the proper priority will push the effective cooldown on Judgement up to 9.5 seconds, so the T7 4 piece bonus isn't worth much anymore. May just be a bug with what Rawr is saying about the imp. Judgements talent. Either way, having a 7 second cooldown on Judgement doesn't do much good.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Joanadark » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:54 am

Kedon wrote:As far as I can remember, using the proper priority will push the effective cooldown on Judgement up to 9.5 seconds, so the T7 4 piece bonus isn't worth much anymore. May just be a bug with what Rawr is saying about the imp. Judgements talent. Either way, having a 7 second cooldown on Judgement doesn't do much good.

This.
Crusader Strike is the highest priority ability, and is a 4 second cooldown, resulting in 2 CSs in an 8 second window. As a result, pushing Judgement's cooldown to below 8 seconds just results in it clashing with that second CS.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby Harlequina » Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:03 am

Thank you. After the latest release of rawr the optimizer in it doesn't try to make me wear T7 anymore. :p
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby majiben » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:28 pm

Joanadark wrote:
Kedon wrote:As far as I can remember, using the proper priority will push the effective cooldown on Judgement up to 9.5 seconds, so the T7 4 piece bonus isn't worth much anymore. May just be a bug with what Rawr is saying about the imp. Judgements talent. Either way, having a 7 second cooldown on Judgement doesn't do much good.

This.
Crusader Strike is the highest priority ability, and is a 4 second cooldown, resulting in 2 CSs in an 8 second window. As a result, pushing Judgement's cooldown to below 8 seconds just results in it clashing with that second CS.
That's not quite true. You will not be able to do CS more often than 4.5 seconds without creating deadtime (the bane of DPS) because of the GCD and the same with using Judgement every 8 seconds.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby rodos » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:36 pm

The Rawr Ret model does all kinds of crazy stuff with the 4pc T7 bonus if you leave the default settings. It was telling me that blues were upgrades over T7.5 pieces (and not because of hit or expertise), which I worked out was because it wanted me to break the set bonus. Playing with the latency setting (I run with 350-400ms ping, and a slow brain) made the T7 pieces jump up and down the scale.

Similar effects can be seen by adjusting the "wait" timer, to indicate you're willing to wait for a higher priority attack to come off cooldown. Interestingly, setting this to a longish value (0.5 s) doesn't result in a decrease in the estimated dps (with 4pcT7 and 2/2 Imp Judge).

This parameter sensitivity, coupled with the fact that my real-world dps usually comes off at about 1.5 - 2k less than the estimate (3.5 - 4 vs 5.5), makes me very suspicious of anything Rawr tells me. I think I'm going to spend some quality time with the target dummy and switch over to using the effective cooldown model tuned to my (obviously sub-optimal) play style.
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby majiben » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:39 pm

Did you enable perma bloodlust? That's usually the source of people's complaints when they say rawr is predicting 1-2k more DPS than you are actually getting
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Re: [Ret] Rawr, 3.2 mode, T7 set bonus

Postby rodos » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:29 am

Did you enable perma bloodlust?

No, just the Bloodlust checkbox in "fight parameters" which adds about 100 dps.

I think I'm just not a good button masher. I'm one of Those People who play WoW because I suck at computer games.

I also need to pay more attention to what buffs and debuffs are actually present when I raid and how well they're kept up. If I uncheck everything except self buffs, and Horn of Winter (there always seems to be about eleventy DKs in any given raid) it's predicting 4k, which is more reasonable.

I guess I should update recount too.
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