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Ret Burst

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Ret Burst

Postby 2ndNin » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:36 am

I was thinking again (yeah bad thing to do) and it came to me that realistically a non-dot class is always going to be burst based eventually (it might take some setup, and the setup period can be used to control PvP burst, however eventually it will need to be capable of doing N,000 DPS).

Thinking this, with Retribution hoping to sit around 6,000 DPS at T8.5 made me think of our rotation:
9 6 9 6 9 6 ... repeat, roughly 9s rotation (slightly longer to get the full pattern in place since the abilities swap position but basically a 9s rotation). Consecration handily lasts roughly this long, and is damage over time based.

So 9s duration, 6,000 DPS ~ 54,000 DPS (2 CS, 3 3.0s melees, 1 DS, 1 Judgement + seal procs) and I started to see an attack pattern more like:

Consecration---------------- 18,000 Damage over 9s ~ 2K DPS
|.Divine Storm------------- 4,500 Damage over 9s ~500 DPS
|.|.Judgement------------- 3,000 Damage, 6,000 Damage DoT (9,000 over 9s) ~ 1K DPS ~ 3,500 DPS at this point with low burst
|.|.|Crusader Strike + Seal Proc + applies debuff
|.|.|Crusader Strike + Seal Proc + applies debuff
|.|.|Crusader Strike + Seal Proc + applies debuff

The remaining 2,500 DPS to be made up over 3 GCDs (2,500 *9 = 22,500 damage per ability, roughly 3,500 CS, 2,000 Seal).

The rotation can be made interactive via procs (Art of War, Vengence, whatever) subbing in spike damage or large dots in place of the CS portions. At this stage the retribution Paladin cannot burst effectively as there are multiple options to forward / backwards setup buffs:

Consecration is the highest priority, it buffs all other damage. Divine storm then sets up a 3-5 stack of debuffs that can be taken off a target (setting up a CS string the same way death runes do for Blood giving the HS HS HS HS [HS HS] string if desired). Finally Judgement sets up CS to actually activate seal procs making Crusader strike the most damaging part of the rotation (however requiring the setup 3GCDs to actually perform well). If backwards synergy is desired, CS can setup a buff acting to improve damage done by non-CS sources meaning your rotation is always best served by mixing CS and other strikes (so the CS CS CS CS CS CS plan is a bad one, as is Judge CS CS CS CS CS CS).

Procs such as art of war feed into making the spec bursty, proccing nice damage boosts or tricks like exorcism.

This further compromises PvP burst by harming mobility, without an active consecrate under them the Ret paladin loses damage and thus becomes less capable of burst by default. This functions like desecration however without the snare making Ret's kill the use of HoJ to keep a target within Consecration (ticking at ~ 2K/tick) and enabling the burst setup. This also means casters must move from ret (standing and pounding is dangerous), and forces gap openings on melee combats to counter ret's lack of MS or similar (standing near Ret will hurt even if you are hurting them, ergo encouraging attack and feints).

On PvE fights, the short duration of the Rotation (9s) means a Ret forced to move is not overly penalised (they will get into combat, drop Consc within 9s and get upto speed in the rotation), and you are not penalised for swapping target overly other than the loss of the reverse synergy between the CS debuffs and DS/Consc/Judgment. Retribution at this stage has massive AoE DPS potential (2,000 DPS from consecration per target, in a situation like Freya with 15 targets would see spikes of 30,000 DPS) requiring the addition of a damage cap similar to that of other AoEs or perhaps scaling with the Paladin's stats (so a 2,000 DPS consecration caps at 15,000 DPS + crits, while a 2,500 DPS consecration caps at 17,500 + crits) to stop the problem other caps have of making the spell stop gaining power as you gear up.

A 9s rotation is quite short, however it is reasonably comparable to that of a destro lock:

Immolate
|.Conflagrate
|.Chaos Bolt
|. Filler
...
Repeat to keep immolate up,CB / Conflag on cd.

Ours would require stricter control and the correct substitution of procs to make it effective rather than the Destro lock badly overlapping CD model.

I would argue that this model is already applied via Affliction locks and similar having an effective rotation (ok the dot timers line up horribly) similar to:

Corruption (should only need cast once, the exact order of this rotation is wrong but the idea is there)
Unstable Affliction
Haunt
Curse of Agony
--- Filler
Unstable Affliction
Haunt
--- Filler
Curse of Agony

The DPS of the spec is instantaneous (it is in its full swing from the second Haunt is up) and maintains this easily. The filler portions are due to the badly overlapping timers of the dots (which could be closed up and made into a perfect rotation like the 969 or my proposed Ret).

Ret at this point would have lowered burst, and high DPS potential, however still lacking is a reason to break the rotation in PvP. The obvious solution to this is to alter the functionality of DS and Judgement making one of these an interrupt (I would suggest judgement for this setup since in my vision it enables the seal procs on CS), and the other into a mutating ability such as the use of Death Runes such that it can be worthwhile losing the setup damage from the DS in return for the mutated ability proccing from it in certain situations. In this case something like:

Divine Storm: Deals 110% weapon DPS*N to M targets (including current target) and heals for (M, max 4) * damage dealt * K. The paladin gains "awesome buff" for 9s increasing Holy damage by L%.

Paladin MS: Prevents all healing to the target for 4.5s (GCD + 2 Strikes), requires the Paladin to not have awesome buff.

In effect a forebearance effect: PMS > DS works, DS > PMS does not, meaning if you expect the target to be healed you break your damage rotation (substituting in CS with no seal proc, or an early judgement) for the ability to interrupt the healing done to the target.

This finally puts us in the right position:

Paladins have a simple rotation
Paladins have a modifiable rotation (proc based so its not a simple macro dps)
Paladins have a reason to reduce their DPS potential for utility gain
Paladins have the ability to kill healers / other targets by chaining Stun / MS effects, however need high time on target to do so
Paladins retain the utility at the cost of damage model they have currently.

Edit: One major issue which crops up with this solution is the power of consecration. Dealing 18,000 damage over the 9s is ideal to reduce single target burst damage while maintaining overall damage (if you need any help quelling doubts go do the Illidari council fight, his ticks for about 3,000 iirc and is very effective at denying an area but does damage slowly enough that you can escape with only 1-2 ticks at most).

The issue with this is a fight like Kologarn (and to a lesser extent Freya with the adds, however in that case a simple DPS cap on the ability will come into play due to the number of adds), where there are N large high health targets such that the consecration damage is multiplied up in a useful way (Kologarn + active arm = 2K bonus free damage, + health on arm to blow off for last transition means the health taken off it is not useless). This implies some kind of diminishing returns on targets / a target cap such that:

1 Target: 2,000 DPS
2 Target: 3,000 DPS
3 Target, 3,750 DPS
...
Damage cap applies and reduces effectiveness.

If this is seen as overly powerful, the buff effects can be affected by forbearance making bubbling a real choice rather than a DPS drop for the duration of the immunity.
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby andx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:56 am

I like this idea. I've just glanced over it but i'll read it more in depth in a sec but surface wise it looks like a viable solution.
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby Kelaan » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:25 am

2ndNin wrote:Thinking this, with Retribution hoping to sit around 6,000 DPS at T8.5 made me think of our rotation:
9 6 9 6 9 6 ... repeat, roughly 9s rotation (slightly longer to get the full pattern in place since the abilities swap position but basically a 9s rotation). Consecration handily lasts roughly this long, and is damage over time based.

So 9s duration, 6,000 DPS ~ 54,000 DPS (2 CS, 3 3.0s melees, 1 DS, 1 Judgement + seal procs) and I started to see an attack pattern more like ...


Is there a particular reason you're using a 9,6,9 pattern rotation, rather than a priority rotation (as Ret normally has been since 3.0)? I'm slowly digesting your post, but that seems to be a central assumption which I believe may be flawed.
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby andx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:21 pm

Kelaan wrote:
2ndNin wrote:Thinking this, with Retribution hoping to sit around 6,000 DPS at T8.5 made me think of our rotation:
9 6 9 6 9 6 ... repeat, roughly 9s rotation (slightly longer to get the full pattern in place since the abilities swap position but basically a 9s rotation). Consecration handily lasts roughly this long, and is damage over time based.

So 9s duration, 6,000 DPS ~ 54,000 DPS (2 CS, 3 3.0s melees, 1 DS, 1 Judgement + seal procs) and I started to see an attack pattern more like ...


Is there a particular reason you're using a 9,6,9 pattern rotation, rather than a priority rotation (as Ret normally has been since 3.0)? I'm slowly digesting your post, but that seems to be a central assumption which I believe may be flawed.


I think he's saying he has 2 seperate "rotations"

9's are : CS>>Judge>>DS>>CS
6's are : Concecrate>>Exo>>CS?
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby andx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:17 pm

andx wrote:I like this idea. I've just glanced over it but i'll read it more in depth in a sec but surface wise it looks like a viable solution.

I took a little deeper glance into this and I think that your "rotation" is going to lack using a lot of the High damage DPS skills as much as possible.
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby 2ndNin » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:48 pm

969 works for protection paladins, and there are similar types of rotation. Normally we see:

Fixed rotation - can be very long but repeats (eg: DK)
Fixed rotation with varying slots - the 969
Priority system - Warriors
FCFS - Old Ret (effectively, technically it was a low differentiation priority system)
Fixed duration with filler - locks etc.

For this rotation it is a pure priority sytem:

Consc > Judge > CS > DS in terms of damage, however the maximum damage rotation should be:

Consc > DS > Judge > CS due to the effects of buffs.

The reference to 969 is only for a GCD locked rotation type not to a specific interleaving of 9s and 6s abilities the way Prot does, in this example there are 3 9s cooldown abilities, with CS spammable (though doing so is never better DPS unless consecration is unusable).

The issue with a class like retribution is the number of attacks, if we make N attacks in M seconds, we need each attack to do M/N*Target_DPS, so for an old school Ret there were empty gaps in the rotation meaning each attack has to hit harder to make up the damage, they need a perfectly filled rotation to reduce the damage per attack (and thus the potential to avoid damage) for PvP. This means something like 969 as a rotation (ie: each GCD filled).

The second problem is that in PvP you can sacrifice long term stability for short term burst, Ret has a cooldown period where it does little damage after it first unloads, problem is each time you get into combat in PvP is a first time unloading situation, ie: you can always maximise your dps at the cost of long term stability because there is no long term (in a similar way we as prots can drop HS in return for Exorcism for a higher TPS rotation but less mitigation, however it screws with our perfect locking rotation).

This means you want to encourage synergy in attacks. In my suggested solution Consecration is used as a positional damage buff to the ret (so they prefer static fights, or fewer moves - Grobulus could be a pain in the ass), Divine storm acts as a forward synergy tool boosting damage but applies a buff that stops you accessing PvP utility (so you need to drop a high damage multi-target spell to gain the ability to use that utility, my suggestion was about 10% of damage overall), and Judgement allows CS to proc seals. This means the ideal rotation becomes:

Consc -> DS -> Judge -> CS -> CS -> CS repeat.

Which is then broken by art of war etc to make the system more "skill based".

Again the trick with this is the forward synergy like a Destro lock has, you cast Immolate even though it is bad DPS as it enables your 14s of high damage rotation, Ret's in my case is just a lot more complex and locked (CS filler attacks are GCD locked to minimise damage per strike). I haven't got a proper mathematical model for this, but you shouldn't be able to go:

Judge -> CS -> CS -> CS -> CS -> CS effectively, taking the numbers I put put:
CS + Seal = 2,500/3 *5 DPS = 4200 DPS
Judgement = 1,000 DPS
Total 5,200 DPS using a stupidly simple rotation (800 DPS lower assuming divine storm does nothing, 4,800 DPS (1200 lower) if DS is a 10% damage boost)

You could perhaps do something like:

Consecration -> Judge -> CS -> CS -> CS -> CS
Consc: 2,000
Judge: 1,000
CS+Seal: 3,300 (2,500 *4/3)
total 6,300 DPS assuming DS does nothing.

If instead DS applies a 10% damage bonus to all attacks we can take 10% off these and get something ~ 600DPS lower than the ideal rotation assuming perfect GCD locking (5,700 DPS).

There is no real "high damage" attack in this rotation, its 4.5s setup, 4.5s burn in each 9s long rotation with art of war procs to keep it interesting, other thing is you need to keep Consecrate up to really make it worthwhile damage meaning PvP requires skill (anyone standing near you is punished, but hit and run is beneficial). Much more damage is DoT based with 6K of Judgement being back loaded and a heavy consecration damage boost. If you really want to penalise the dropping of DS and simplifying the rotation (making utility expensive) you can simple have it alter the judgement Damage or seal damage more heavily (so 10% all damage, +50% to Judgement DoT effect?).

This system is much easier to tweak to where you want it because it offers a simple setup / burn stage in each rotation like Destro but has each GCD being valuable towards the whole with heavy positional requirements (make a Destro lock move and watch their DPS drop, similarly if the target moves out of Consc this Ret paladin loses 2K DPS until he can reestablish it).
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby Proudfoot » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:27 pm

Overall, I like your approach to making Ret more interesting. I just had a few thoughts.

I don't see why you believe there needs to be a punishment for using utility. Using the utility in itself is using a GCD that could have been damage right? Look at Shammy wind shear(?)... no damage but it interupts. With our DPS rotation GCD limited it would be a significant dps loss.

One other thing... if we have a rotation that is completely GCD locked when do we ever use utility in PVE?

Paladin MS: Prevents all healing to the target for 4.5s (GCD + 2 Strikes), requires the Paladin to not have awesome buff.
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby 2ndNin » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:32 am

The reason to punish for utility is Blizzard seems to want to.

Curse of Elements = 3-500 DPS loss for a lock (free to moonkins / DK)
Scorch = 200 DPS loss to a mage (well actually I have seen some saying its like 100% dps loss but I think thats exaggeration)

Utility and especially Paladin utility seems to come at a penalty, you can have a nice ability (Hand of Sacrifice), but its limited, you can have your uber absorb (Divine Guardian), but its either useless or it will kill you without using other abilities (Bubble).Even our buffing is anti-utility, look at the resistance to just making Sanctuary into Kings and rolling the mana regen into Imp Righteous Fury or similar, its a non-sensical choice but its what Paladins get.

As for PMS, we aren't going to get a mortal strike effect and we most certainly with this build do not have burst on a non-stunned character (Consecration alone is probably burst on a stunned character :P), and Blizzard wants us to have reasons not to use a standard rotation (GC has said this repeatedly about upping skill level and stopping us using all our stuff all the time). While it doesn't seem to apply to Destro Locks, or anyone else (and I pick on Destro Locks because their rotation is a self contained small cycle) it does to Paladins. PMS therefore makes you skip a 4K damage ability, and lose 10% damage on the rest of your spells in return for getting 2 attacks in without healing affecting them (1.5GCD for PMS, 2x1.5GCD for damage), its very powerful, its more powerful than a stun in some ways and less in others and comes at a significant damage trade off so it seemed reasonable as a way to make "damage or utility" work. If timed correctly (and remember you are still locked into a rotation with this build to do decent damage) it will be massively powerful, but its equivalent to an MS effect over the whole 9s rotation, but compressed to 1/3rd of it.

Edit: In PvP assuming a target can avoid our consecration this would be ~ 4000 DPS - 10% for resil = 3,600 DPS (~27,000 DPS for a full rotation), if you drop in PMS that drops to 21,700 damage over the full rotation meaning you could not single handedly kill a fully PvP geared player in the stun + PMS overlap period. You need external help and time on target to kill stuff, basically it would take 2 of these to kill you in 1 stun duration, which seems pretty fair to be honest (and already happens in even BGs). PMS just seemed like an interesting way to change MS to make it more tactical and less "Zomg and then I hits my button once every N seconds", blanket reductions are no fun, hitting PMS to stop the Holy Light incoming but letting through the flash is a lot more fun and requires a lot more awareness.
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby andx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:31 am

Stop calling it PMS... making me think of other things. can we call it AIDS(Awesome Intense Divine Stun) instead?

Anyway AIDS is too powerful the way you have it set up. Sure we are less bursty but you want to turn us into a stun locking 2h weilding plate rogue who gives everyone AIDS and lets the DoT tick and kill them.

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Re: Ret Burst

Postby 2ndNin » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:41 am

We can't stun lock, we would have two utility to help against people:

HoJ - 6s stun (4.5s active attacks from us)
PMS - 4.5s 100% MS (3.0s active attacks from us)

Just seemed quite an interesting way of doing it.

As for the acronym, its a Paladin Mortal strike...
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby andx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:13 am

2ndNin wrote:We can't stun lock, we would have two utility to help against people:

HoJ - 6s stun (4.5s active attacks from us)
PMS - 4.5s 100% MS (3.0s active attacks from us)

Just seemed quite an interesting way of doing it.

As for the acronym, its a Paladin Mortal strike...

I see I thought PMS was a stun for some reason. I like the idea. As for teh Acronym I was just attempting humor. Attempting being the key word.
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby 2ndNin » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:04 am

Lol no, giving us a 2nd stun would be a tad OP given either the normal ret burst or the sustained damage in my build. Making it a targetable MS (though I might actually be tempted to make it more like Loathebs, 1.5s, then 1.5s 3s later :) to make it fun).

As for the name, well think how fun it would be to hear the complaints:

"Fed up with PMS in arena's"
"A Paladin PMS'd me for over 9,000 damage"
"Healers now useless with PMS"
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby Proudfoot » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:42 am

Lol no, giving us a 2nd stun would be a tad OP given either the normal ret burst or the sustained damage in my build.


It boggles the mind how you can think that another stun would be OP but completely denying ALL healing isn't. Bad idea is bad.
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby andx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:09 pm

Proudfoot wrote:
Lol no, giving us a 2nd stun would be a tad OP given either the normal ret burst or the sustained damage in my build.


It boggles the mind how you can think that another stun would be OP but completely denying ALL healing isn't. Bad idea is bad.

Hmm perhaps

Target will take 50% less damage but can not receive healing for 4.5 sec
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Re: Ret Burst

Postby 2ndNin » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:16 pm

Another stun = incapacitation = forcing blowing of trinkets, avoidance tools, and maximises burst in this build.

100% short duration MS = tool to stop a heal proactively, costs DPS in the rotation, doesn't stop movement, they still can use their CDs to survive.

How can you not see the difference? 2 Stuns lets you get out of the old fashioned trap of HoJ, trinket Repentence 1 hit... as they cannot trinket both stuns they would have to take a stun period with no realistic choice. In contrast stopping healing for a short (1-2 GCDs) literally stop 1 healing spell coming through (well 3 if you manage to catch the end of 1 cast, 1x1,5s and 1 instant spell) making it a utility tool rather than a necessary smash button. Think of the scenario:

Ret hits Consc, HoJ
Holy Din trinkets
Ret Judges
Holy Din Cleanses
Holy Din hits Holy Shock, countered by PMS
Holy Din Bubbles
Ret looks amused and sits there...

You could have a similar scenario with a Hunter using deterrence, a mage blocking, lock teleporting away. Restricting healing is both more and less powerful than cc, however it in no way is as restrictive in the current PvP environment.

Also note that in this ret build, Consecration does 2,000 DPS roughly. This means that a stun becomes a highly dangerous tool for us because it ups our sustained DPS (and effective burst while stunned) massively.
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