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Consecration Idea [Multi-Spec]

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: Consecration Idea [Multi-Spec]

Postby Elsie » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:23 am

A better idea: New Talent (3 Points) Sanctified Ground
After a raid member in your consecration is struck by a critical hit, Sanctified Ground returns 1/2/3% of the health that player lost from the attack is returned over every second. Furthermore, Consecration suppresses the effect of any movement impairment's effectiveness and grants a 33/66/100% chance to resist any movement impairment effects on raid members in its area.

Note - worded as such instead of "healing" to emphasize it does not consider +/-% healing effects such as Mortal Strike and Improved Devotion Aura or tree aura.

Pros:
1. Usable Proactive and Reactive.
2. Scales to encounter in PvP and PvE.
3. Reverse-MS utility by a non-healer class that isn't simply "Healed more" such as Touched by the Light.
4. Balances out the current desecration / hunter trap problem that is plaguing pvp more than immunities.
5. Is not a "Free Hand of Freedom" because the buff is lost after 8 yards, and placement is dictated by an 8 or 10 second cooldown.
-Does not remove, but suppresses them. This is functionally the same as Anti-Magic Shell, but less powerful overall.
6. Undispellable
-Similar effects that it directly counters are already undispellable. In effect, this drives the game more towards hard counters instead of dispel wars.
7. Gives paladins a "peel" for their teammates without giving them a snare or root effect.
8. Makes paladins use their abilities more thoughtfully in PvP.
- Paladins can use Consecration for either more DPS on a burn target, or utility.
- Paladins risk breaking CC such as repentance, blind, and sap if they use consecration merely if an enemy is afflicted by the spell.
- The paladin's entire team must consider their positioning much more just as a team with a hunter might have to consider their positioning around frost trap.
9. Is not sustainable in PvP
- A retribution paladin simply cannot reasonably maintain his mana pool while keeping consecration active.
- Even if a retribution paladin could sustain his mana, the paladin would surely lose other utility due to the high mana requirement.
- This makes Mana less of "simply a novelty" for retribution paladins
- Paladins take a great risk in using this ability if facing a team with damage absorption effects which could negate JotW mana return.

Cons:
1. Could scale out of control in PvE with the heal return.
-Already scales inversely with damage shields which mitigates a lot of the PvE effect.
-Tanks will almost always be immune to critical strikes already
-Raid damage, in almost the entirety of the game, cannot be a critical strike already.
2. Could limit encounter design.
- Boss abilities have already been proven to be immune to many spells in effect in the game. For example, Algalon's Big Bang, Vael's Burning Adrenaline, and The Four Horsemen's Mark abilities all ignore Divine Shield and Icebound already. It is trivial to see that blizzard could merely make the same stipulation for this ability.
3. Could scale out of hand.
-All the terms used mirror or are similar to already-in-place mechanics. If this could scale out of hand, then the same would have to be said of Anti-Magic Shell, Desecration, Frost Trap, and Blessed Blessed Recovery.
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Re: Consecration Idea [Multi-Spec]

Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:48 am

Elsie wrote:Note - worded as such instead of "healing" to emphasize it does not consider +/-% healing effects such as Mortal Strike and Improved Devotion Aura or tree aura.


Not likely to be a good solution. Blizzard has already indicated that they don't like the escalation of counters to counter-counters, counter-counter-counters, etc in PvP.....and this falls directly in that category. If MS is out of control in PvP (I have no idea if it is or not), then address MS itself, don't just give a weak MS counter to a single class.
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Re: Consecration Idea [Multi-Spec]

Postby Elsie » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:51 am

Not likely to be a good solution. Blizzard has already indicated that they don't like the escalation of counters to counter-counters, counter-counter-counters, etc in PvP.....and this falls directly in that category. If MS is out of control in PvP (I have no idea if it is or not), then address MS itself, don't just give a weak MS counter to a single class.

Okay, then simply have to become affected by +/-%. It works out to 16% returned after 8 seconds where as blessed resilience is 15% but follows with you.


Blizzard may not like the escalation of counters, but realistically speaking the entire pvp game is counters no matter how you slice it. There's CC, anti-CC, damage, healing, and stuff that makes healing better or worse. Truthfully, DK snares are out of control. There's literally no way to escape a DK even with blessing of freedom except for a warlock's teleport. Mortal Strike is so important I've only seen one team composition do well that dared to go without it (shadowplay) which has its own unique way of dealing with this (unstable affliction). Truthfully, the game is full of snares and very little anti-snares. In fact, the only way to typically get out of a movement effect is hand of freedom, bop (Warriors), poison removal (rogues), Fade (priest only), and magic removal (slow, frostbolt, aftermath, etc). This is why charge effects are so important. There's no realistic way to stay out of a snare once you're in one - especially because there's nothing you can do about a DK's desecrate (nothing works except freedom).

Furthermore, usually dealing with snares wastes too much damn time or resources. Hand of Freedom on a snare is usually a waste because the person will get purged or stunned. Using BoP on a snare is a waste because they still have all their burst up. Poison removal is a waste of time since it reapplies near instantly. All of this takes valuable GCDs. As far as magic removal, there's more dummy buffs and proc buffs in this game than I can count. Furthermore, the snare or the extra debuffs can have dispel resistance. When you're looking at a possible 5+ GCDs to remove a snare, you're looking at losing over 10,000 healing and damage.

While the escalation of counters is an issue, not having the basic abilities that people want counters for in the first place is a bigger issue. The only solution is to actually give paladins the basic pvp necessities or more assured methods of dealing with everyone else's.
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Re: Consecration Idea [Multi-Spec]

Postby Proudfoot » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:53 am

Elsie wrote:A better idea: New Talent (3 Points) Sanctified Ground
After a raid member in your consecration is struck by a critical hit, Sanctified Ground returns 1/2/3% of the health that player lost from the attack is returned over every second. Furthermore, Consecration suppresses the effect of any movement impairment's effectiveness and grants a 33/66/100% chance to resist any movement impairment effects on raid members in its area...

2. Scales to encounter in PvP and PvE.


How exactly would this benefit anyone in PVE? What tank is getting critically hit?
Also the wording is confusing... are you saying they get 3% of their health on each tick following a crit or that they get 3% of their health over the remaining duration of consecrate?

IMO it would be much easier to just go with a straight heal. Maybe 1% of max health per tick if you wanted to go that way, or you could just have it scale from the paladin's stats.
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Re: Consecration Idea [Multi-Spec]

Postby dmok » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:48 am

Elsie wrote:4. Balances out the current desecration / hunter trap problem that is plaguing pvp more than immunities.

Because hunters aren't already gimped enough in arenas ...

Overall a decent idea though, but it is starting to sound very complex. I hate when a spell has 15 different conditions for it to work as you intend.
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Re: Consecration Idea [Multi-Spec]

Postby Elsie » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:26 am

How exactly would this benefit anyone in PVE? What tank is getting critically hit?

When I first started typing it, it was worded to take place on all damage and an instant return. Obviously, that was too strong.
Also the wording is confusing... are you saying they get 3% of their health on each tick following a crit or that they get 3% of their health over the remaining duration of consecrate?

The wording is exactly like Blessed Recovery in the Priest's Holy talent tree except I worded it to specifically return the health lost - i.e., not a healing effect. However, it's easily changed to read similar to the talent anyway if being unaffected by Mortal Strike is too much. The second effect is worded similarly to Anti-Magic Shell. If the wording is confusing, then evidently a lot of things are confusing.
Because hunters aren't already gimped enough in arenas ...

Hunters are actually putting in a decent showing in certain comps. At any rate, the ability specifically says Snares, so survival tricks still works as well as Earthgrab possibly.
IMO it would be much easier to just go with a straight heal. Maybe 1% of max health per tick if you wanted to go that way, or you could just have it scale from the paladin's stats.

The idea is arena utility. A straight heal leads to too many duplicate abilities in raids (JoL, LotP, Blood Presence) and soon aoe healers are like "uhh...." or we're getting tons of sunwell style aoe at us. A reactive on-crit ability fits into the flavor of paladins.
Overall a decent idea though, but it is starting to sound very complex. I hate when a spell has 15 different conditions for it to work as you intend.

It's not very complex at all. There's two effects to standing in a paladin's consecration:
1. You are immune to snares as if under Hand of Freedom, but it does not remove pre-existing snares.
2. When you are hit with a critical, you regain 3% of that critical strike's damage done per second for the remaining duration of consecration.
-Note this means you will never be healed more than 30% of the damage dealt. If you are crit for 1000 damage, your Sanctified Grounds buff procs a hot for 37.5 healing per second for the remainder of consecration. If you are crit again for 1000 damage, this becomes 75 HPS. Etc. The idea is it would build upon itself similar to Righteous Vengeance.

Essentially, you are gaining a buff just like Desecration, except it's helpful instead of painful. You're also giving up a massive amount of mana and possibly breaking your own CC in order to benefit from this.
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Re: Consecration Idea [Multi-Spec]

Postby Proudfoot » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:55 am

The wording is exactly like Blessed Recovery in the Priest's Holy talent tree except I worded it to specifically return the health lost - i.e., not a healing effect. However, it's easily changed to read similar to the talent anyway if being unaffected by Mortal Strike is too much. The second effect is worded similarly to Anti-Magic Shell. If the wording is confusing, then evidently a lot of things are confusing.


The difference is that this is not a buff that will pop up on someone when they are critically hit and last a set amount of time. or is it?
What if there's only 1 second left on consecrate? What if there's 7?

It could be a HoT that pops up with the condition that you have the "sacred ground" buff currently active.

A better idea: New Talent (3 Points) Sanctified Ground
After a raid member in your consecration is struck by a critical hit, Sanctified Ground returns 1/2/3% of the health that player lost from the attack every second for 5 seconds. Furthermore, Consecration suppresses the effect of any movement impairment's effectiveness and grants a 33/66/100% chance to resist any movement impairment effects on raid members in its area.


I don't like the movement impair part either but that's just me.

The idea is arena utility. A straight heal leads to too many duplicate abilities in raids (JoL, LotP, Blood Presence) and soon aoe healers are like "uhh...." or we're getting tons of sunwell style aoe at us. A reactive on-crit ability fits into the flavor of paladins.


I thought the idea was also to give Holy Paladins more of a reason to stand in melee range and to have an easier time with AOE healing. Why make a talent like this only useful for PVP?
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