[Ret] PTR SoV changes

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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby Joanadark » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:16 pm

So I take it back. Maybe they actually DO read feedback. Thanks for convincing me to post in the thread Sabind.eus
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby majiben » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:54 pm

It did feel good to see feedback from theory crafters affect a last minute change on the PTR before it went live and see that feedback be implemented one cycle later.
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby andx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:10 am

got to work, checked my email, got on maintankadin.failsafedesign.com saw the update and smiled to myself. Perhaps 3.2 might not be so bad after all.

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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:53 am

lusisia wrote:
Proudfoot wrote:
Essentially we're getting partial seal damage now before a full stack. I hope to god it's not a bug.


You mean partial proc damage right?


Good question. Want to make sure we're using the right terms. Here's what it says on EJ:

Also, SoV now does partial Seal damage from each melee attack/special even before 5 stacks, gonna assume something like ~6% per point. If anyone could tell me how to get a clean log of it, I'd post the proof.


Not sure it's all been fleshed out yet. I'm not sure if it's just some percentage of the stack done as holy damage on melee hits or if we're getting a percentage of the full stack buff to all of our attacks.


Perhaps they realize they went a bit too far. Or it was the crowd with pitchforks in Irvine...
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:58 am

Majiben wrote:It did feel good to see feedback from theory crafters affect a last minute change on the PTR before it went live and see that feedback be implemented one cycle later.


Well, if the latest isn't a bug, then perhaps we actually had an impact.

But even if it is a bug, I suspect that the ptr patch the day after the storm hit showing the special damage procs was a result of the explosion in the forums.
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby halabar » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:05 am

From suicidal zebra:
PTR SoV Update.

Nomenclature

Seal of Vengeance (SoV): The Seal in question.
Holy Vengeance (HV): The debuff left by Auto-attack hits/crits whilst SoV is active. This debuff causes periodic damage to the target.
SoV Proc: The direct damage proc from Seal of Vengeance. The damage of this proc depends on the number of copies of HV on the target, up-to 33% of weapon damage for 5 copies of the debuff.

--

A new build on the PTR has slightly improved the damage output of SoV during the ramping-up stage. In previous builds, the SoV Proc only occurred when 5 copies of Holy Vengeance were up on the target. Now, Seal Proc damage scales with the number of copies of the debuff on the target:

Holy Vengeance Stack Size SoV Proc Damage (% Weapon Damage)
0 No Proc
1 6.7
2 13.3
3 20
4 26.7
5 33


The Holy Vengeance debuff is still only applied via auto-attacks and HotR.

CS, DS and Judgement, aswell as Auto-attacks and Hammer of the Righteous, can all trigger the SoV Proc.

For the record, I still think it's a bloody stupid system, but it's now marginally less stupid.
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby andx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:09 am

halabar wrote:From suicidal zebra:
PTR SoV Update.
For the record, I still think it's a bloody stupid system, but it's now marginally less stupid.

Haha I love the stinger.
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby Smartos » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:42 am

For the record, I still think it's a bloody stupid system, but it's now marginally less stupid.

I think that this quote describes the situation pretty well. Whatever the developers intended to do with the new SoV system, they have completely failed.
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby Zakkarai » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:44 am

I still think that we need divine storm to proc it in order to remain competitive in AOE situations.
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby lusisia » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:46 am

Zakkarai wrote:I still think that we need divine storm to proc it in order to remain competitive in AOE situations.


I'm willing to wait on AoE situations. We still have consecrate which has no target limit. The AoE numbers could easily be tweeked after the fact.

What I, and I think a lot of people, were concerned about is that the SoV issue was such a step back in our boss dps abilities that it wouldn't matter what AoE DPS we could do if we were so far behind there.
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:50 am

Joanadark wrote:So I take it back. Maybe they actually DO read feedback. Thanks for convincing me to post in the thread Sabind.eus


:)
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby BubbaBill » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:33 pm

If I were Blizzard this is the way I would role out all nerfs. Go way the hell overboard at the begining then scale it back. Think about they nerfed ret to the ground and everyone was rightfully angry, then they scaled back the nerf to still fairly substantial burst loss and everyone is happy that our QQ was heard and they threw us a bone. If they had changed it originally to the way it is now everyone would still QQ and there would be no happy feeling of getting buffed back up.

Remember sheople only remember the last thing you did. 10 nerfs followed by 1 buff and people will be happy for the buff. 10 buffs then 1 nerf and the QQ lasts till the next buff comes along.
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:43 pm

BubbaBill wrote:If I were Blizzard this is the way I would role out all nerfs. Go way the hell overboard at the begining then scale it back. Think about they nerfed ret to the ground and everyone was rightfully angry, then they scaled back the nerf to still fairly substantial burst loss and everyone is happy that our QQ was heard and they threw us a bone. If they had changed it originally to the way it is now everyone would still QQ and there would be no happy feeling of getting buffed back up.

Remember sheople only remember the last thing you did. 10 nerfs followed by 1 buff and people will be happy for the buff. 10 buffs then 1 nerf and the QQ lasts till the next buff comes along.


I don't think anyone has forgotten that we lost burst, it's just not worth discussing since Ghostcrawler outright said "we're nerfing your burst get used to it"
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby andx » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:42 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I don't think anyone has forgotten that we lost burst, it's just not worth discussing since Ghostcrawler outright said "we're nerfing your burst get used to it"


Being a primarily PvE Retadin, I really dont mind loosing burst in order to gain STDPS. I would however like to see an increase in our AoEDPS that would reflect the changes of our primary seal. Over a large number of targets we have nice AoEDPS due to Concecrate not having a # of Targets cap. However, I would like to see a nice little buff to our Divine Storm as most fights that are not 8+ mobs are usually around 4 mobs, so I find the general basis of the skill great but with the seal changes our 51 point skill has lost quite a bit of its multi target luster. I understand that on AoE fights in 3.2 seal dancing to SoR may compensate but it still will not put us to where our AoE was before. The possible solutions that I can provide would include:

1.) An improved concecrate damage talent that is somewhere towards the bottom of the holy or prot tree. If it is a more substantial skill then mid to late ret tree.

2.) Retooling Glyph of Divine Storm from increasing the healing of the skill to increasing the damage output.

3.) Adding a 25% of DS damage over 5 seconds DoT so the damage is not burst and allows the skill to really regain some OOMPH behind it giving us the PvE DPS boost that blizz wanted to give us. I feel that the 25% DoT will not be OP in PvP because if the DS hits for even 10K the DoT hits pretty decently with 500 damage each second which is managable in PvP but provides PvE with a 250 dps increase due to DS having a 10 sec CD which is noticable but not immense perhaps even a little low, but that could be adjusted with the turn of a dial by Blizz.

This is just some ideas off the top of my head as I count down to the end of the work day. Let me know what you think. I know this isn't DIRECTLY SoV related but it does find it's roots based in the loss of our beloved Seal of emo.


Thanks,
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Re: [Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby Torquemada » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:05 pm

Basically the change of to having a partial stack partially give you the 33% bonus(By stages of 6.7%) is exactly what I was suggesting. I just thought they were going to have it ramp up slowly and then only reach full effectiveness at 5 stacks instead of scaling smoothly to 33%. I think it's much less punitive than just expecting you to suck it up until you have 5 stacks. I still think only having it be white hits is stupid, but there you go. They still need to change SoCasino so it's not possible to just shield through it and take no damage, because it's still worthless for PVP.
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