[Ret] PTR SoV changes

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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[Ret] PTR SoV changes

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:31 pm

Tagged the post title. -Baelor

Seal of Vengeance got gutted on the PTR. Specials no longer Stack Vengeance, nor do they proc the 33% weapon damage. Only white attacks do either of those things, and Hammer of Righteousness.

What this means for ret: Massive nerf. The entire promised DPS buff for 3.2 is completely reverted and then some. We're looking at at least a 600+ DPS DECREASE from live, putting ret dead last on DPS out of all classes and specs by a massive margin. Additonal effects are that ret will have to sword and board for the first 15 seconds of every fight using the fastest one-hander we can find to get vengeance stacked to 5.

What this means for prot: Mostly nothing. Gimmick "Protribution" PvP spec no longer workable.

what just happened? if this goes live, I will be directly forced to reroll or respec, because my class will no longer be viable at all in PvE.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Braundo » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:32 pm

Hopefully this is not the final version. I am all for keeping a level head about this until things go live.

But still...weak.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:34 pm

This was mentioned in the ej ret thread a few days ago and hopefully thought to be a bug as there was no mention in the patch notes.

Edit: Nevermind, there are now patch notes - wtf.

Edit #2:

Ghostcrawler wrote:Only white attacks can stack the Sea of Vengeance / Corruption dot. However special abilities should still trigger the bonus weapon damage. I'm not sure the current PTR build you have reflects that last bit.

The goal was not to nerf Ret for PvE. We do want the ramp up time to be significant for PvE or it won't solve the PvP problem we're trying to fix. However, once you get the stack up, your damage should be pretty decent. On very short kills (say trash or something like Thorim arena) you won't be able to get the full benefit from the dot, but any class with a finishing move typically loses that damage as well. Balance is important for both short and long fights, but it's normal to use different rotations or abilities for those two extremes. (In other words, we're okay with a long ramp up time for this ability.)

We will continue to monitor Ret numbers coming out of the PTR and even once the patch goes live and make changes if necessary.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby majiben » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:07 pm

It's confirmed intended behavior by some blue posts which was brought up in the EJ thread today.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby SmurfZG » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:11 pm

maybe they don't want rets to be using sov?
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Magnusharkov » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:15 pm

Current intended implementation is that only white attacks will stack the SoV dot, however once it hits 5 stacks all specials will proc the instant damage. This means that we lose a lot of aoe damage as divine storm no longer procs seals on secondary targets, and much more importantly we have a 15-18 second long ramp up time on single targets where we are dealing pretty shitty damage.

This is a BIG DEAL.

Countless fights have targets that have to be dead within 15 seconds and also have long sections where melee have to run away from the boss. 15 seconds is just way way way too long, I could live with 5-8 seconds.

At the very least they need to make crusader strike stack the SoV dot, at least then there is some logical midground attained

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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby majiben » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:17 pm

You're mistaken, ret specials don't proc the seal at all.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Magnusharkov » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:18 pm

Majiben wrote:You're mistaken, ret specials don't proc the seal at all.


Yes, on the PTR they don't, that's an acknowledged bug by ghostcrawler:

"Only white attacks can stack the Sea of Vengeance / Corruption dot. However special abilities should still trigger the bonus weapon damage. I'm not sure the current PTR build you have reflects that last bit. "

Anyhow if this goes live I wouldn't be surprised to see paladins forced to use and glyph seal of righteousness for any kind of trash fight, movement fight or to be honest any non patchwerk style fight.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Corpsicle » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:22 pm

I rather expect to see Crusader Strike added as an ability that can stack the dot - although then I would also expect to see CS require a two hander to be equipped. The problem is that as it is currently implemented it may very well be better to use a 1hander to stack the dot, while using specials and Shield of Righteousness, then swap to a 2 hander when stack is at 5. Making CS work only with a 2h equipped but also stack the dot would give CS the secondary ability they've been searching for and also encourage Rets into using 2handers from the start of the fight.

Current developers post on SoCorruption:

Source: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 8546&sid=1

Only white attacks can stack the Sea of Vengeance / Corruption dot. However special abilities should still trigger the bonus weapon damage. I'm not sure the current PTR build you have reflects that last bit.

The goal was not to nerf Ret for PvE. We do want the ramp up time to be significant for PvE or it won't solve the PvP problem we're trying to fix. However, once you get the stack up, your damage should be pretty decent. On very short kills (say trash or something like Thorim arena) you won't be able to get the full benefit from the dot, but any class with a finishing move typically loses that damage as well. Balance is important for both short and long fights, but it's normal to use different rotations or abilities for those two extremes. (In other words, we're okay with a long ramp up time for this ability.)

We will continue to monitor Ret numbers coming out of the PTR and even once the patch goes live and make changes if necessary.


Followed by

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q u o t e:
We've been monitoring numbers all weekend for you. Please instead of leaving ret to be the last bandaid on the PTR before it's slapped to live, take some time to FIX retribution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which is why we made the change to let special attacks benefit from the bonus weapon damage. We don't send every one our builds up to the PTR, and the PTR data is often behind our internal builds.

On the other hand, we are seeing a spike in the victimized / woe is Ret posts. If this was intended to be one of them, I implore you to please not go there. The posts that got our attention on this topic were those that estimated the dps loss, not the ones about how we don't care about Ret or don't know what to do with paladins or whatever. Those are the posts we tend to skip over.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:25 pm

Majiben wrote:It's confirmed intended behavior by some blue posts which was brought up in the EJ thread today.


Later on in the EJ thread, there's the quote from GC I linked above in my edit. Specials should be proccing the bonus damage.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby majiben » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:25 pm

That is news to me and seems to contradict their previous statement:
[url=http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17899680776&sid=1]Summary: Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage. In addition, the damage-over-time effect is now considered a melee attack instead of a spell attack and the effects from these seals can only be triggered by auto-attacks and Hammer of the Righteous.
[/url]
I certainly hope GC is not mistaken though. But I still find it odd they would not respond to it being reported as a bug for quite a while then release a public statement saying it was intended but then come out and say their public statement was incorrect and it is at least partially buggy.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:27 pm

Ghostcrawler's comments seem to imply that they made the seal proc only on melee first, saw the theorycrafters point out the huge dps loss, then reverted it for the damage proc on their internal build. The build that went live got the first change but not the revision, as did the patch notes update.
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Venoseth » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:16 pm

I'm just wondering...when they say "special attacks proc the additional damage" for Prot does that mean HotR or is it also Judgement / ShoR?
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Modal » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:45 pm

Ulduar fights with significant burn windows, heavy trash or target-switching elements, potential windows of time off-target, or two or more of the above:

XT
Razorscale
Iron Council
Kologarn
Auriaya
Hodir
Thorim
Freya
Mimiron
Yogg

This is not an issue that affects only long vs. short fights. It severely penalizes ret for switching targets or spending significant amount of time off-target. We now have a 15-second ramp up period whenever we do. Combo points are not a valid analogy; no rogue takes 15 seconds to get 5 combo points built up. Not happy about this at all.

(Edit: forgot burn window in mimiron p3)
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Re: To the Ground Baby!

Postby Modal » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:44 pm

I made what I hope can be a more constructive thread about this on the main forums: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=18698008035&sid=1

Unfortunately I doubt I'll have the time to keep up with it and really moderate for tone. But it would be nice to get a blue response to serious concerns instead of just GC getting huffy about "you lied to us again" posts.

(edit: oops, I seem to have originally linked to the long uber flame war thread with whiny blue GC posts avoiding discussing the actual issue)
Last edited by Modal on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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