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[Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:36 pm

I also don't see how DSac diminishes HoSac.....it's strictly better with your bubble up.


On hard mode content, doing either without Bubble up is Death. An Aura Mastery Paladin can AM every 2 minutes, AND HoS. A DSac Paladin can only DSac.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Baelor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:47 am

Epimer wrote:
Joanadark wrote:I honestly don't understand why this Divine Sacrifice build seems to be treated by everyone as this be-all-end-all cookie cutter ret build, when the Aura Mastery build is useful in so many more situations than Divine Guardian ever is.


I never really understood this either. Ret is very much my off-spec, and it only gets dusted off and brought out for the odd heroic or alt raid, but when I first bought dual spec and specced into Aura Mastery the full time rets in the guild all said "wtf are you doing?". I think Cathmor's blog (or was it Dorvans...?) had an AM spec and a DS spec as both being recommended, but I don't really understand this "spec DS or DIE" orthodoxy either.

Yes, in my 3.1 FAQ I listed an Aura Mastery build as an option. I personally prefer the Divine Sacrifice build at current since I originally thought that the raid-shield-wall effect was incredibly useful. Here's where I use it consistently and it's much more effective than Hand of Sacrifice:
XT (during tantrum) *special note: can use Hand of Protection on self during another tantrum to get more use out of Divine Sacrifice. Tantrum is physical damage.
Mimiron (p2/p4 are good spots for it)
Freya
Yogg (p1-2 transition is sometimes a little dicey, this helps smooth it out)

However, I can see JD's point. Aura Mastery presents a shorter cooldown (when considering DSac and DShield are essentially tied together, for all intents and purposes) with a wide array of uses (silence negation, increased resistance). Plus, Hand of Sacrifice + Divine Shield is still usable with an Aura Mastery build, so the tank's ass isn't forfeit.

I previously thought of Aura Mastery as a weak talent. I think I might take it in 3.2 and play around with it some - 11/5/55.
Still doesn't solve my Imp BoMight/Vindication problem though...
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:04 pm

We do Shadow Resist Aura Mastery during XT-hard tantrums because we've found the primary reason people actually die during tantrums is because they had gravity bomb.
On Mimiron P2 Fire Resist Aura Mastery is basically the same as DSac because of the way it mitigates Heat Wave damage. If you're taking more rapid burst damage than heat wave damage than your positioning strategy is non-optimal.
On Freya it's kind of a toss up. In my experience people don't normally die to Ground Tremor, they die to Ground Tremor PLUS something else happening at the same time that isn't supposed to. Besides, prolly the single best thing you can do for a raid to fight predictable simultaneous AOE raid damage like tremor is bring a Rapture-based raid healing Disc Priest.
On Yog p1-p2 transition, both the Shadow Volleys from missed Interrupts, the Shadow Novas from exploding adds, AND the DoT from Sara's Fervor are all Shadow Damage, and thus mitigated by Shadow Resist Aura Mastery. On top of that, you can SR AM during the Brain Room phases to mitigate the feedback damage and the damage from Laughing Skulls that the melee takes, and depending on how many Holy pallies the raid has, you can provide one of the two necessary Conc Aura Masteries to cancel out every single Deafening Roar.

To be fair, there is a fight where AM is almost completely useless for. Iron Council. QQ no nature aura.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Baelor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:14 pm

Joanadark wrote:We do Shadow Resist Aura Mastery during XT-hard tantrums because we've found the primary reason people actually die during tantrums is because they had gravity bomb.
On Mimiron P2 Fire Resist Aura Mastery is basically the same as DSac because of the way it mitigates Heat Wave damage. If you're taking more rapid burst damage than heat wave damage than your positioning strategy is non-optimal.
On Freya it's kind of a toss up. In my experience people don't normally die to Ground Tremor, they die to Ground Tremor PLUS something else happening at the same time that isn't supposed to. Besides, prolly the single best thing you can do for a raid to fight predictable simultaneous AOE raid damage like tremor is bring a Rapture-based raid healing Disc Priest.
On Yog p1-p2 transition, both the Shadow Volleys from missed Interrupts, the Shadow Novas from exploding adds, AND the DoT from Sara's Fervor are all Shadow Damage, and thus mitigated by Shadow Resist Aura Mastery. On top of that, you can SR AM during the Brain Room phases to mitigate the feedback damage and the damage from Laughing Skulls that the melee takes, and depending on how many Holy pallies the raid has, you can provide one of the two necessary Conc Aura Masteries to cancel out every single Deafening Roar.

My question for you, JD, is this - how much does an AM'ed resistance aura cut incoming damage? With DSac, you know your negating 30% of incoming damage on everyone in the room. With Aura Mastery-Shadow/Fire/Frost Resist aura, you're simply beefing up the resistance total of everyone within 40 yards of you. I'm not totally clear on the functioning of resistance - I just know that there are threshholds to reach for sure-fire percentage-based resistance.

For someone going into a fight with 0 shadow resistance, and who is then covered by a Aura Mastery'ed-Shadow Resist aura, and then subsequently the subject of a raw 10k damage shadow-based attack, what is the range of damage that will be taken by our friend? With DSac up, I can say that it's probably 7k.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:23 pm

Damage reduction = (effective resistance value / (caster level * 5)) * 0.75

Thats the formula. So in your example, the player would receive 43.37% damage reduction through shadow resistance, resulting in them taking 5663 damage.

As a follow-up, assume that, for comparison, the same player has 120 shadow resistance from base, un-AM'd aura, as well as DSac up. They would take 7331 damage with just the aura alone, but if you add DSac too they take 5482 damage.

As you can see, AM and Dsac result in almost directly equivalent reductions in damage, while AM has none of Dsac's drawbacks and can't ever kill you. Being off the GCD it is also a lot easier to use reactively.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:36 pm

In my experience too Dsac has a nasty habit of inexplicably breaking early even when bubbled. It seems to depend on the way the damage is clustered. If too much random incidental damage gets siphoned it will randomly just stop working, while it will sometimes last it's full duration even wwhen siphoning massive amounts of damage from big raid-wide hits.

Remember too that the only reason Dsac is good at the moment is because it is broken. When you bubble before Dsacing the 150% hp cap on the damage siphon doesn't get enforced. This is a BUG. It is getting fixed in 3.2
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Dorvan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:38 pm

Joanadark wrote:In my experience too Dsac has a nasty habit of inexplicably breaking early even when bubbled. It seems to depend on the way the damage is clustered. If too much random incidental damage gets siphoned it will randomly just stop working, while it will sometimes last it's full duration even wwhen siphoning massive amounts of damage from big raid-wide hits.


I've never had that happen. Honestly. Not much I can say against anecdotal evidence.

Remember too that the only reason Dsac is good at the moment is because it is broken. When you bubble before Dsacing the 150% hp cap on the damage siphon doesn't get enforced. This is a BUG. It is getting fixed in 3.2


Sure, but there are a lot of changes in 3.2. That's not an argument against using DSac while it's in its current form, especially for the past 3 months when there was no indication is was ever going to get changed.

Also, you shouldn't compare AM'ed resistance auras to no resistance, but rather only look at the effect of the additional 130 resistance or whatever it is, since people without AM are entirely capable of using the appropriate resist aura for a fight.

Final nitpick, in 3.1 DSac is 40% reduction since 0/17/54 includes DG.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Baelor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:43 pm

Joanadark wrote:Damage reduction = (effective resistance value / (caster level * 5)) * 0.75

Thats the formula. So in your example, the player would receive 43.37% damage reduction through shadow resistance, resulting in them taking 5663 damage.

So base Shadow Resistance Aura would cut the damage by 24.38%, cutting that shadow attack to 7562.

I realize this purely academic and likely outside the scope of this thread and the reality of how these abilities are used, but how does resistance and DSac interact (which one is applied, in what order, and by addition or multiplication)? Say a subject with Shadow Resista Aura up and affected by DSac were hit with that 10k shadow attack - what would the resulting damage be? 4562 (additive based off of the base attack damge)? 5293 (multiplicative)?

I recognize that you can mitigate more overall damage when considering Aura Mastery (and its associated 2min cooldown) in conjunction with Hand of Sacrifice/Divine Shield and resistance auras, and that you have the anti-silence/pushback option as well, but I'm trying to get my head around incidental usage of DSac vs AM to combat predictable raid burst. Has anyone mathed this out vs a particular encounter? I'm very intrigued by this potential build.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:48 pm

Resistance damage reduction and DSac stack multiplicatively. Think about it logically and it makes sense why. You "take" damage of a numerical value that is determined by your resistance to the school cast at you. DSac then looks at the damage you "took" and siphons off a portion of it.

Final nitpick, in 3.1 DSac is 40% reduction since 0/17/54 includes DG.


Oh right, forgot about this.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Dorvan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:50 pm

The damage reductions from resistance and DSac are multiplicative. Thus against a boss you'll have

130/(83*5)*.75 = 23.49% reduction against a boss with just SR aura.

46.98% reduction against a boss with AM popped

46.44% reduction with SR aura and DSac

54.09% reduction with SR aura and DSac (specc'ed for DG).

In short, AM will give you solid spell resistance on a more frequent basis, DSac/DG will give you greater damage reduction and apply it to all kinds of damage simultaneously, but has a much longer effective cooldown.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Baelor » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:55 pm

Dorvan wrote:The damage reductions from resistance and DSac are multiplicative. Thus against a boss you'll have

130/(83*5)*.75 = 23.49% reduction against a boss with just SR aura.

46.98% reduction against a boss with AM popped

46.44% reduction with SR aura and DSac

54.09% reduction with SR aura and DSac (specc'ed for DG).

In short, AM will give you solid spell resistance on a more frequent basis, DSac/DG will give you greater damage reduction and apply it to all kinds of damage simultaneously, but has a much longer effective cooldown.

For completeness's sake, what's the reduction with AM popped and DSac popped (with and without DG)?
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Dorvan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:58 pm

Baelor wrote:
Dorvan wrote:The damage reductions from resistance and DSac are multiplicative. Thus against a boss you'll have

130/(83*5)*.75 = 23.49% reduction against a boss with just SR aura.

46.98% reduction against a boss with AM popped

46.44% reduction with SR aura and DSac

54.09% reduction with SR aura and DSac (specc'ed for DG).

In short, AM will give you solid spell resistance on a more frequent basis, DSac/DG will give you greater damage reduction and apply it to all kinds of damage simultaneously, but has a much longer effective cooldown.

For completeness's sake, what's the reduction with AM popped and DSac popped (with and without DG)?


62.89% reduction for AM + DSac

68.19% reduction for AM + DSac (with DG)
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:05 pm

There comes a point where you save your additional cooldowns for when Bad Things happen later on, lol. Generally things have to be pretty dire for stacking multiple major cooldowns to not be overkill.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Earantur » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:11 pm

Won't the relative values of AM vs DS depend on your raid composition, assuming that AM doesn't stack with another AM, and DS doesn't stack with DS. After all, I'd assume that having AM pallys in the raid already devalues AM. For example, we usually have 3 holy pallys in our 25s, which is enough to hit every Frozen Blows on Hodir. A ret pally bringing in AM wouldn't then be able to use it to it's full capacity.
A similar example would be Divine Sacrifice on XT-002. Only one paladin with Divine Sacrifice is needed to catch every tantrum; on the rare occasions we have 2 pallys with DS the second one feels wasted on XT - although I suppose you could rotate DS+BoP while keeping bubble for use with HoSac. However, that would just push the 'Divine Sacrifice usefulness soft cap' to 2 paladins; an extra AM would likely be more useful than an extra DS at that point.

I suspect that AM will be more useful than DS come 3.2. Illumination nerfs are likely to make most Holys switch to a prot subspec, and changes in JoL/seals/divinity will mean that a holy subspec would be preferable to a prot one for Ret pallys.
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Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby majiben » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:23 am

I'm suprised you're using average values for AM resistance rather than minium since your healers will still need to heal for the maxium hit/dps stack enough stam. That alone severely reduces AM's value to a mere 11.11% damage reduction versus just an aura.
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