Remove Advertisements

[Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Baelor

[Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Doogiehowser » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:04 am

Alright smart people,

I was wondering if you could possibly help me critique my ret build for 3.2.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... sion=10128

That's what I'm looking at doing. The reading I've done over at EJ points to SotP being a must have now that SoV is most likely to become our "boss" seal. However, they are saying that SotP is not effecting the 33% of weapon damage once you have 5 stacks up. It still feels right to load up in SotP but anyone with some hard numbers would make me a happy camper.

(Interestingly, SoR appears to be stronger than SoC for trash.)

I'm not seeing a viable way of getting that "utility" that I've come to love so much in Divine Guardian without sacrificing significant dps talent points. The nice thing is that I am still able to pick up Divine Sacrifice. Am I missing something?

They are also arguing that the same FCFS priority system will take effect once you have 5 stacks of SoV up. This is strikes me as odd since our CS will do less damage for a higher damage/mana coefficient. Again, am I missing something?

Most of this is based on pure intuition (or lack thereof :) ) so if anyone has any strong arguments, I'd love to hear them.
Doogiehowser
 
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:38 am

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Elsie » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:16 pm

Drop Vindication for 2/2 Pursuit of Justice, and you should have 5/5 Divinity instead of Guardian's Favor. More +healing is nice since you'll still be the main source of JoL, and Vindication will be easily covered by the tanks. In fact, Vindication from a ret paladin will have a poor uptime.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:21 am

I read on EJ that Divinity wasnt affecting the new JoL.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Elsie » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:08 am

Joanadark wrote:I read on EJ that Divinity wasnt affecting the new JoL.

Well, there's 5 points in the prot tree out the window. Here's hoping it's either (1) a bug or (2) intended in order to make the second tier reworked to be attractive to ret in pve.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:37 am

I honestly don't understand why this Divine Sacrifice build seems to be treated by everyone as this be-all-end-all cookie cutter ret build, when the Aura Mastery build is useful in so many more situations than Divine Guardian ever is. I've only ever used the prot build in Mimiron hard-mode pre-nerf (I never bother with it now), and General Vezax hard mode (and even then only because of Divine Guardian beefing up Sacred Shield, and because Profound Darkness is unaffected by Shadow Resistance). All the ret sites seem to promote it, every guide I've read cites it, and yet I've found AM to just be so much more useful and clutch a talent for almost everything I do.
Even if Divine Sac wasn't bugged, it's effectively a once-per-fight tool because Divine Sacing without bubble is death, and DIvine Sac overwrites Hand of Sac, the more important tool, eliminating your ability to use this very important cooldown to the raid in exchange for a mediocre aoe-reduction at best. There is no AOE effect short of hard-enrage that should gib someone, and even if there were you should be using a raid-healing disc priest for a much more consistant and reliable anti-gib. There is, however, plenty of tank damage that CAN. In most cases, Aura Masterying a resistance aura will result in far more reduction in raid damage than DSacing would have, and AM is off the GCD, doesnt cut your damage in half for 12 seconds, doesn't throw away your ability to hand of sac, and is on a 2 minute cooldown instead effectively a 5 minute one.
AM is just so incredibly versitile too. Look at 3 knock Freya. If Ground Tremor is the trouble you can let your healers (not to mention DPS) free-cast through it. If your raid is having trouble with lashers you can AM every lasher phase. If they are slow on transitions or someone gets caught out of position or a Eonar's gift or roots are in a bad spot on the Conservator phase you can AM the pacify. On Algalon you can drasticly reduce the raid damage of collapsing stars, and then switch to mitigating cosmic smashes during the final burn.

Honestly the only appeal for me of the DSac build is the added duration on Sacred Shield, resulting in less GCDs spent refreshing it on the tank, and a slight overall DPS gain in a stand-and-burn encounter like Vezax.
Not taking Seals of the Pure in 3.2 is a pretty big, and completely unnecessary DPS-loss. I would not reccomend doing any build without Seals of the Pure. DPS increasing talents are scarce enough without purposefully not taking one of them.

TL;DR- I reccomend not taking DSac in the prot tree. Just get Divine Strength and go down holy for Seals of the Pure and pick up Aura Mastery.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:40 am

Elsie wrote:
Joanadark wrote:I read on EJ that Divinity wasnt affecting the new JoL.

Well, there's 5 points in the prot tree out the window. Here's hoping it's either (1) a bug or (2) intended in order to make the second tier reworked to be attractive to ret in pve.


It doesnt apply to JoL for the same reason that JoL by a Holy Paladin doesnt count towards beacon of light. Its healing done BY the person hitting the target, not by you.
Therefore, technically yes it DOES affect JoL, but only JoL procs on YOU.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Modal » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:52 am

Joanadark wrote:It doesnt apply to JoL for the same reason that JoL by a Holy Paladin doesnt count towards beacon of light. Its healing done BY the person hitting the target, not by you.
Therefore, technically yes it DOES affect JoL, but only JoL procs on YOU.


Divinity is 5% healing on both your heals and heals on you.
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:37 am

yes. It double dips for JoL procs. You effectively get a 10% increase on joL procs on YOU with 5/5 Divinity. But ONLY JoL procs on YOU.

Test it yourself.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Modal » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:36 am

Oh I see; I misread your previous post. My clarification was unnecessary.
Image
Modal
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:36 am

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Kedon » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:03 pm

Doogiehowser wrote:They are also arguing that the same FCFS priority system will take effect once you have 5 stacks of SoV up. This is strikes me as odd since our CS will do less damage for a higher damage/mana coefficient. Again, am I missing something?


Overall the CS change is a slight buff. The main thing however is that it procs seals so it still remains a high priority. Lower cooldown = more seal procs from it. Keeps RV rolling nicely as well.
Image
Kedon
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:42 am

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Epimer » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:05 am

Joanadark wrote:I honestly don't understand why this Divine Sacrifice build seems to be treated by everyone as this be-all-end-all cookie cutter ret build, when the Aura Mastery build is useful in so many more situations than Divine Guardian ever is.


I never really understood this either. Ret is very much my off-spec, and it only gets dusted off and brought out for the odd heroic or alt raid, but when I first bought dual spec and specced into Aura Mastery the full time rets in the guild all said "wtf are you doing?". I think Cathmor's blog (or was it Dorvans...?) had an AM spec and a DS spec as both being recommended, but I don't really understand this "spec DS or DIE" orthodoxy either.
User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:29 am

Perhaps many people dismissed AM as a "pvp talent" because they dont really understand the mechanics of it or the way resistances interact with damage intake, and Divine Sac's tooltip is easier for the novice to understand. DSac's implementation is just flat out annoying to me because Dsacing without bubble is death, and I'd much rather have my bubble available as a clutch fail-safe ability like every single other Melee DPS has, because they are so important in hard-modes progression.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Joanadark » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:33 am

Btw some numbers on Seals of the Pure. 5/5 in this talent represents approximately a 6.5% DPS increase on PTR. Its a vital talent, and any build that takes some of the more piddly DPS gains in the ret tree but leaves out this talent would be foolish.

Just because its in the Holy Tree doesnt make it bad.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
Joanadark
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 7:09 pm

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby loeni » Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:06 pm

It may have something to do with the fact that there aren't enough points to both pick up aura mastery and max divinity for JoL healing. I know that's part of my reason for choosing DSac over AM.
Image
loeni
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:59 am

Re: [Ret PvE] 3.2 Build & Rotation Questions

Postby Dorvan » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:32 pm

Joanadark wrote:Perhaps many people dismissed AM as a "pvp talent" because they dont really understand the mechanics of it or the way resistances interact with damage intake, and Divine Sac's tooltip is easier for the novice to understand. DSac's implementation is just flat out annoying to me because Dsacing without bubble is death, and I'd much rather have my bubble available as a clutch fail-safe ability like every single other Melee DPS has, because they are so important in hard-modes progression.


Meh, I find that I'm rarely "almost dead" as melee DPS....either I'm doing fine or I've screwed up and gotten gibbed. I also don't see how DSac diminishes HoSac.....it's strictly better with your bubble up.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Next

Return to Off-specs & Other Classes

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?